SPI 822: Why Small Communities Win Big—Roundtable with Natalie Franke and Matt Gartland

SPI 822: Why Small Communities Win Big—Roundtable with Natalie Franke and Matt Gartland

Natalie Franke: I see the future, of community like a pendulum swing. We went from like, “I want to be there where all the people are.” But now it’s like, “Oh, there are only a handful of people here,” but the impact, the conversation, the depth, what we’re doing together, the vulnerability I can bring to the table when it’s not a room full of five thousand, instead it’s table full of five, like it may from a vanity metric perspective seem like less, but from an impact perspective, that smaller scale, I think, is having a massive comeback and making a tremendous amount of headway in 2024.

Pat Flynn: We have a special round table episode today. It’s myself, Matt, and our special guest, Natalie Franke, who is just involved in so many incredible things. She’s full time chief evangelist and head of community at HoneyBook. She’s over at Flodesk, head of marketing there. She’s written a book called Gutsy, which I recommend checking out. Learning to live with bold, brave, and boundless courage.

And we wanted to bring her on today to talk more specifically about community, building community, how to foster and nurture that community. Your community and your audience is different. Your audience is people listening, watching and paying attention to you.

But community is communication with each other inside of that audience space, right? So Just building an audience is one thing, but the future of business is community. And we’re going to talk more about that today with an expert who is doing so much in that world, like I said, with HoneyBook and Flodesk, you can find her also on Instagram, Natalie Franke, that’s Franke with an E at the end.

And this is an incredible conversation. Let’s scale up your business the right way today with this round table conversation, myself, Matt, and Natalie Franke, here we go.

Announcer: You’re listening to the Smart Passive Income Podcast, a proud member of the Entrepreneur Podcast Network, a show that’s all about working hard now, so you can sit back and reap the benefits later. And now your host. In addition to his two dogs, he has a fish named Kimchi. Pat Flynn.

Matt Gartland: Hey friends, it’s Matt. We’re back with another very special round table podcast episode. As always, my partner in crime, Pat, is here and today our special guest is Natalie Franke, one of the most experienced and just wonderful people in the whole industry of community building. It is a joy, Natalie, to have you with us today.

Thanks for being here.

Natalie Franke: Well, you made me sound so incredible. That was really sweet. Thank you. I’m excited to be here. I’m honored to be here. I adore you both and just respect the heck out of you and all that you’ve done in our world in the community space and the small business space and beyond. So thanks for having me on.

Matt Gartland: Absolutely. I really almost wanted to continue the amazing conversation you and I had together on your podcast, I think last quarter. And I think there’s some interesting through lines even back there to that. And to kind of literally start that through line, you know, community is of course our business today.

You have been building community for so long. You built a community, you sold a community, you’re now leading community at Flodesk. Tell us your story. Where did it start and what is now very different today from when you first started building communities online?

Natalie Franke: Look, it started for me the way a lot of entrepreneurial endeavors start for people, which is I saw a pain.

Right. I felt and experienced a pain in my own life. At the time I was a full time wedding photographer and I had built a very successful small business photographing luxury and destination weddings both in my hometown and around some key destination spots. And as that business had started to grow, I realized, that running it could also be incredibly lonely.

Right? Like being the business owner and carrying the weight of the world on your shoulders without other people to go through it with you was isolating and it wasn’t something that I was willing to settle for. Like I just, I couldn’t imagine doing this for the rest of my life if I was only doing it alone if I didn’t have community and connection.

And so my introduction into community building wasn’t necessarily from the professional track or the professional route. So many people go into it now truly knowing community led growth is massive, right? Like this is transforming the way companies are being built today. But back then, you know, eight, nine years ago, I was just a photographer who didn’t want to do it alone, who didn’t want to see fellow small business owners focusing more on competition than they did on community, on rising together, on sharing what we know, and, you know, educating one another as the market was changing and the way we grew our businesses was changing. And so I co founded a community called the Rising Tide Society.

It started as an at one small meetup in my hometown of Annapolis, where I live. And it grew into at its peak right before 2020 over 400 chapters meeting every single month around the United States, Canada, and the world. And over 75,000 members, all of whom are independent small business owners. And those chapters, those 400 chapters, were and still are led by volunteer grassroots leaders from those communities, business owners, that had the same feeling I did, which was like, I want it to be different.

I want it to be better. I want us to get together and support each other. It shouldn’t always be so dog eat dog, afraid, and living out of this scarcity mindset when it comes to other people doing what you do or in the periphery of what you do something similar right in the small business space. And so that kickstarted my transition from being the photographer, the creator into cultivating community for people like myself.

After co founding Rising Tide, it was acquired by a startup called HoneyBook, which was the podcast that you referenced, the amazing HoneyBook podcast now led by one of my dear friends, Akua Konadu. Akua Konadu, since I left last fall to join the team at Flodesk to spearhead their marketing organization and take on the role as head of community.

In those years, since Rising Tide was co founded, those eight years ago, a lot has changed. Like absolutely a lot has changed. Back then when we were cultivating community and experiencing that rapid period of growth, that like very, very accelerated scaling season, it was enough to have a general concept.

And to come forward into the market and say, we want a space where you can come together and gather and belong. That value proposition was incredibly strong because at the time, you know, at least in our corner of the world, that was fairly unheard of. We were still living in an era where there was a lot of fear around sharing knowledge and information.

Social media was just really starting to pick up and take off in the small business world. Courses, creators, like all of this was starting coming to an inception, like really, really taking off. I’m trying to think, when was the first course creation software really, like truly launched and created? Was it like a decade ago?

Matt Gartland: Close to it. We started in late 2015, early 2016 is my memory, and we built on Teachable in its early days. So that may not be the absolute origin point, but that was our origin point.

Natalie Franke: And it was right in that time frame, right? Like it was right in that time frame where, you know, you had some folks that were saying, look, if it was hard for me, it should be hard for you.

Like, if it was hard for me to start a business, I’m not going to tell you what I’ve learned. Why would I do that? Why would I make it easier for you? That was like one half of the community that existed at that time. But then you had the other half, like both of you who are saying, well, no, actually, if I’m learning something, I want you to know how to do it.

Like I’m going to share, I’m going to teach, I’m going to create spaces where we can actually support each other. We can get real value out of people that have come before you and you can support others along the way. So the biggest shift, you know, one of them I should say that I’ve seen is, you know, the importance of having clarity around what you are offering in a community.

It is very, very important to communicate that, to be clear on that, to follow through on that value proposition. Like if you say one thing, deliver on it. There’s no room anymore to bait and switch. Like we don’t have time for it. We’re not going to put up with it. And we’re all, you know, in a world where we chat, we talk.

So you’ve got to show up with integrity and you’ve got to deliver on, on what you promise and that amongst other things. But I’m curious if that resonates, like if you’ve seen anything like that as well as time has gone on.

Pat Flynn: Yeah, if I may, you know, it’s the difference between before, Oh, there’s people there.

Yeah. Okay. I want to go there too. Right. And now it’s like, those are my people. Well, we speak the same language. That’s where I want to hang out. Right. Because now people are everywhere. They’re on every social media platform and there’s so much noise. But once we start hearing those familiar voices or seeing people who have experienced the same kinds of things or who are in the trenches with us, wherever that trench may be, then there’s a level of, ah, okay, those are the ones who will understand me, who will get me, who will perhaps even help me or who I can help as well. And that’s where you start to see some really powerful communities and connections and truly bonds that are made. And similar to like molecular structures, when there are bonds, you create solid things and a community is a solid thing now.

That’s our business. We, we are a community business now. We’re not selling courses anymore because that it is that important. And, and that’s, what’s going to help us as we go into the future. I mean, I know you predicted in 2022 how crazy AI would be. It’s even crazier now. And as things become less and less human, it is the human connections that are going to be so much more important.

And that’s why I love that we’re talking about this today. And I mean, we’re all on the same page here, I think.

Matt Gartland: Yeah, as things have evolved over the last eight, yeah, pushing 10, almost, you know, a decade here, you know, we think about where maybe some of community got started, of course, on Facebook, you know, Facebook groups, kind of that permutation, that point in time with like how we would describe and even participate right in the notion of community.

And those were in very valuable atmospheres. They were certainly, at least from my vantage point, kind of social first. Yeah. Right. Very much because they were on a social network and even like the incentivizations of say Facebook itself, you know, it was very socialized. And having socialized community, really fostering those relationships, obviously still like of critical importance at this table stakes more than ever.

Like you, you cannot win at community, however you want to define that, right, if you don’t have that. However, I think, and if this tracks Natalie to some of your remarks in terms of what has changed, it’s not just about socializing, people have higher expectations of us. Especially in, you know, the entrepreneurial sectors and the business sectors maybe that’s different in different like hobbyist sectors, but like when we’re trying to really solve problems through community for people that are struggling, that are in pain, that are stuck somewhere in a journey, right, to level up their career, their business, or something that’s like, very serious, right? The consumer expectations are higher. I think in many ways, that’s even a good thing because if we can then actually execute on that, if we can follow through to your point, right, deliver on that promise and if that promise is very clear, that’s then where we are doing our job of really fostering and delivering on and enabling of community as a business.

Natalie Franke: Another thing you brought up with the AI conversation that I think is relevant here, in particular to community, is that as technology and as advancements like AI become, you know, they proliferate and as more people have access to it, I think we start to value that human connection through a different lens and in a different way.

It would be easy to say, oh, we value it more, but it’s, it’s more nuanced than that, right? We always value human connection, but I think it’s, we also start to value those impactful areas of community connection, where we live in this world where it’s like, you know, we’re fighting for connection in an age of algorithms.

We’re fighting for connection in a time where it does feel like we’re getting a little bit more distanced from the actual production process of so much. Like I can’t realize how, I just thought about this this morning. I’m like, how often I use ChatGPT now, like just even ChatGPT, I haven’t even gone down the Midjourney route as a creative.

I’m still kind of dipping my toe, but the fact that it makes me question, like, you know, what is authentic content in an age where AI is writing so much of it? And how, when it comes to community connection, you know, how do we value that human touch, that face, that, that micro interaction and the power of actually being able to get a human being on the other side of a screen where it’s going to become harder for us to interpret what is human from what is not?

And when will it matter? And when will it won’t?

Pat Flynn: We’re in video format now.

Natalie Franke: Oh, I know. Video is hard.

Pat Flynn: Oh my gosh, it’s crazy. I mean, even video now, you don’t even know what’s real. There’s something came out yesterday where Sora, which is you can type in words and then it creates a video of the thing. Now you can actually have it say things like the person who was made up actually voice in the mouth moves.

It’s like I would think that that was a real like who’s even real now. So in the world of community and the things that we’re trying to build, when you say high touch, when you say real connections, I’d be curious to know, like tactfully and what exactly does that look like?

Natalie Franke: Yeah, I mean, I think it looks like one giving space for members to provide value to one another.

You know, I think that that’s a space where we talk about like authenticity, because that word loves to get thrown around quite a bit. You know, I think it comes from not just the leader of a community providing value, right? Or providing resources, whatever it looks like for you, depending on the type of community for those listening, you know, that you’re, you’re striving to build, but I think it also revolves around this understanding that, you know, you’re not an influencer, you’re a community builder.

That’s what you’re doing. It’s not about you, right? It’s about them. It’s about the value, not only that you’re, you know, providing to them, yes, but about the value they can cultivate together. So for me, high touch would mean not just small scale, because I don’t think necessarily it means that either. You can do a lot of really impactful things at scale.

Again, by, by definition, I’m not saying like in the millions or maybe even in the thousands, but you can do pretty cool things somewhat at scale that feel very personal, that feel very relevant. I mean, they’re like really finding ways to have value, be magnified. By the value shared from the experience of others.

And so I’ve seen that done really well as of late. I was just at a conference yesterday and we were up in Connecticut. There are about 200 people at this conference, but you can tell even the way the format of these in person events are starting to shift from, you know, it used to be very much mainstage keynote, small breakouts.

That’s why you showed up and maybe a trade show component, right? That’s why you showed up. That’s what you’re anticipating. But now I go to this event and they did a lot of polling in advance of it and a lot of surveys. And instead it looked like supper clubs where they split all the speakers up and you’re doing like I went to dinner with six other people from the conference at my table.

I never had access to that, to that level with speakers when I was coming into the industry and it was their favorite part. Like they were like, wow. We cannot believe the impact we got in one hour sitting at a table with so and so, or you know, at our table we talked about really impactful things, but even though I was the speaker at the table, there was so much value being shared by every single member of that supper club.

And so it became this sort of magnified impact that maybe was facilitated, right, by the community leader, the community builder, but ultimately was strengthened by the wisdom and the experience of the whole and done in a way such that we were in an environment of learning that was its own. scale. But then there was this little moment created, right?

This little kind of spark of genius that, that created that, that deeper level of connection. And I’ve seen that played out both digitally and in person, but again, like the example from yesterday, it really stuck out to me because as we were listening, I’m a big fan of just closing my mouth and listen, like opening up my ears when I’m in rooms full of people and just, what are they talking about?

What did they like? What did they hate? What are they, right? That’s always been me. I’m a giant sponge and a little bit of an introvert who parades as an extrovert. And so that was the thing they kept saying. Like everyone in the room, they weren’t talking about the keynote. And by the way, the keynotes were phenomenal.

They weren’t talking about the breakouts. And I popped my head into a bunch of them other than our own and the content was great. They were all talking about how much fun they had at dinner, the relationships they forged, the inside jokes that they had. And suddenly they were creating these like micro masterminds together from one single instance of connection. And so in my mind, I see the future, you know, of community looking a lot like that. It’s like a pendulum swing. We went from like, we all wanted to be at South by Southwest. And Pat, as you said, it’s like, Oh, there are people over there. That’s what I want. I want to be there where all the people are.

But now it’s like, Oh, there are only a handful of people here, but the impact, the conversation, the depth, what we’re doing together, the vulnerability I can bring to the table when it’s not a room full of 5000, instead it’s table full of five, right? Like it may on the outside from a vanity metric perspective seem like less, right?

Or seem not as sexy, but from an impact perspective. Whether it’s, you know, true business ROI, or it’s just fulfillment at the end of the day, right, that, that smaller scale, I think, is having a massive comeback and making a tremendous amount of headway in 2024.

Matt Gartland: That’s very motivating, at least for me, because it’s very real.

It’s increasingly real. It is increasingly to your, to some of your points, deep it’s into the nooks and the crannies of life in business and personality and the messiness when you collide all that stuff together because as independent entrepreneurs really so, so many of us, right? Oftentimes, these things are inseparable, you know, life itself from business and being inspired from one side of that coin to the other and then back again, you know, to the next.

And I think also, at least in my view of business and strategy and where the industry is going, a lot of these themes kind of layering on top of each other. It is a competitive advantage. You know, you brought up being increasingly clear and sharper with your proposition, right? Your unique selling proposition.

That is the same notion of just like, how are you different than the next option? Right. Especially now when the zone has been flooded so much in the last few years with communities of different shapes, sizes. a lot of generic ones, you know, because the barriers to entry are lower. And as our mutual good friend, Jason Pfeiffer said on one of our other round table pods the other day, and Jason, if you’re listening, we miss you today that when the technology barriers come down, the barriers to success go up because it’s so much easier to get into the new thing, you know, whatever the new thing is, right? That then there is a rush of that. The zone gets flooded. Then how do you stand out? How do you attract the people you want to attract? How do you, especially with community, retain the people that you want to attract? So all the way back, the more that you can, I think, as you’re describing that, like the little genius moments and sparks and connections, like I think about that maybe as one word of just empathy.

Can you really connect with people empathetically, hear their story, and then have them hear yours? And then that’s the stickiness of, I think, ingenious of real network effects within community.

Natalie Franke: And with saturation, it requires a sharpening of the sword. Like iron sharpens iron for a reason. And when there’s saturation and there’s more in a market, I know that entrepreneurs can get really intimidated by that.

And I, again, go back to being a wedding photographer. I remember vividly the barriers to entry dropping technology, making it more accessible to have a camera. And back then the iPhone came out with a camera. And I vividly, I remember. The threads that were like, photography is dead, photography is dead, true photography is dead.

Now everyone has a camera in their pocket. This is going to destroy the industry. And it had the complete opposite effect with more saturation of a technology in the marketplace, people’s desire to have not only access to photos themselves on a consumer level, their threshold for what is considered high quality that bar suddenly got raised.

There was a deeper appreciation, there was an influx of saturation, more imagery being created than ever before. Now social networks are emerging like something shifted yes, but but did saturation lead to a downfall of photography either professional or otherwise absolutely not. If anything, it created new niches, it created new needs, like brand photography, creators themselves emerged, right?

Like, you could look back and say that was actually kind of an inflection point. But what it did require was a sharpening of your skill set. What it did require in the market whenever there’s an influx, right? You have to get clear on your differentiating factors. What makes you different from the other person across the street?

Right? And how can you communicate that message in a way that deeply resonates? Communities are very much the same. When there are more communities, you do, you’re right, like you have to get clear on what you’re offering. And you also have to make sure that you are continually evaluating the value that you bring to the table.

Because as we all know, what worked, like we’re even talking about it now, but what worked five years ago, whether it’s in community building, entrepreneurial endeavors, heck, being a parent doesn’t work anymore. Like, those rules do not apply today. So, you also have to continually evolve and be willing to embrace change.

Matt Gartland: Amen to that. Yeah. So, Pat, for you, like thinking about embracing change, yes, within our communities and how we’re trying to just increasingly infuse the notion of community really into everything we do, you know, the events that you still lead for us. Our EIR program is, you know, another phenomenal example of that.

Bring other community builders and experts into our midst. How do you Pat see the broader idea of that change being constant and trying to even keep pace with that desire for change that need for change.

Pat Flynn: For any business and it really starts with. Learning how to listen and putting yourself into the community yourself.

I think that’s where a lot of other community builders make the mistake is they feel like they’re just kind of like wrangling everybody and it’s like, okay, let’s let the community do its thing. And until people complain, then we’ll fix something versus let’s be in there with them and engage in conversation, start conversation, but also let others start conversation and just kind of hear people out to see where this is going to go.

And we’ve been really good. I think at least being in tune with where we think the puck is going within our community. And every community is its own different being, and it has its own different heartbeat, has its own different soul. And so how would you know where that wants to go unless you’re in it itself?

And so that’s, that’s sort of lesson number one. And then lesson number two is, is to just, in addition to listening, have conversations, talk about potential solutions. What might this look like? What would be a good idea and experiment, try things. That’s the cool thing about community is it’s not necessarily a structured set of lessons and modules that have a very particular answer to those things, but rather it’s just this dynamically changing thing and embracing that change.

And, you know, also being okay with making mistakes. I think if like the risky thing would just be to do the thing that you’ve always been doing, because it feels safe. Which is actually the most dangerous feeling to have in this area, in this area, obviously. So I think that is at least where my head goes in terms of change and adaptation.

And then when you discover the amazing parts of your, like, this is something I’m very passionate about inside of communities is let’s say, let’s surface the amazing stories that are happening here so that others can see them and others can get inspired by them. You know, putting a spotlight on your own community.

It’s StoryBrand 101, Donald Miller. Let’s like, you are not the hero. Your community is the hero and the individual members there are the hero. And even though you might be pointing out one or two people at a time and really, you know, going into those stories. I know ConvertKit does a good job of this.

They have an entire team dedicated to success stories of their members. And that is so smart because it really, you know, brings a community together. And it’s just, it’s an email service provider, but they have community because they’re highlighting those stories of people and other creators who are just like their customers.

And that’s, that’s really special. So that’s a scalable way. We were talking earlier about, you know, a way to scale that sense of, of feeling that this is, this is my group is. to highlight some of those success stories and show off some of the transformation that, that, that they’ve had that can then inspire more transformations.

And when you were talking Natalie about the event that you were at, I was like, man, that is so just the supper club idea is so smart because one on one is not very scalable. It is beautiful. It is like, that’s where we want to go as much as possible, but we only have so much of us to give on a one to one basis.

But one to a thousand is, is not going to feel like you’re a part of a community that’s broadcasting, right? That’s kind of how it is now. And that’s where many people go to. So there’s gotta be a number. Like, what is the right number of people? Like I think about, so my son’s about to go to high school and he’s going to be joining the marching band.

And I remember when I was in marching band, it was such an intimidating thing. Hundreds of people in this band, everybody playing different instruments. There’s seniors, juniors, sophomores, freshmen. Like where is my place in this? Well, I am a trumpet player. And I got to know my other trumpet player friends and we were kind of, even though we together were a band with the clarinets and the tubas and the saxophones, the trumpets were tight.

And that’s where I found my home in the band was with the other people who shared the same language, the three valves and just the, just the language of the trumpet. And I feel like in our communities, like by dividing our communities about a certain thing into smaller sections. Each playing their own different instrument that together, yes, create a band and create these movements and create emotion, but individually, you feel the connection to the people who are more similar to you.

So to me, that feels like 10 to 20 people, maybe max before it starts to go. Like you’re here too. I didn’t, I didn’t see you this whole season. So is there a particular number or, or size that might make sense for that supper club style? Cause I really think community building that’s where things should be headed and where we should highlight.

Natalie Franke: Yeah. So as a fellow trumpet player myself …

Pat Flynn: That is awesome.

Natalie Franke: I was not very good, but yes, I played all throughout middle school. That was my instrument that I picked. And I was the only girl trumpet player in our little section of the band. So I, I loved it. But as a fellow trumpet player, two quick thoughts that come to mind.

So the first question is, okay, let’s talk about the actual size of those smaller groups. We’re talking about small groups. But the other thing that you you gently touched on and I definitely want to circle back to is you mentioned like in a band you have your trumpet players are a section. They’re part of a larger orchestra and together all of those independent notes create something incredibly beautiful.

Like that’s what makes the symphony, the symphony. It’s all of these independent notes coming together. But even within those, you’ll have leads, right? Like you’ll have leads within those sections very often who support the whole, whether they’re formally a lead or like first chair or whether, you know, it’s more symbolic.

And I want to circle back and touch on that as well. But in terms of size, it’s a delicate balance. You know, when we’re talking small groups, you want enough people to bring diversity of thought into the conversation. So anywhere from like, in, in my experience, if the content and subject matter is, highly emotive, highly intense, very, very deep, challenging, or complex, you might skew a little bit smaller.

That’s just something I have found. And I’m talking again, like we, I’ve done everything from entrepreneurial community to like infertility IVF community groups. And so when I think more like on the IVF space, small group, you can do five people. And that may be even three people, three to five small group that works, a lot of emotions, a lot of room for vulnerability, fewer people allows others to open up right when we’re talking about like that level of, of human experience being shared.

You switch over to something still challenging and complex, but entrepreneurial. You can skew up a little bit in a small group, right? Like, you can go and have maybe a table of 6 to 15, and 15 goes a little high, right? Like, that’s when it starts to be, I can’t hear you at the other end of it, but it’s still enough that you can give, give space for others to communicate.

So I think it’s a delicate balance, and I would encourage anyone who’s actually looking into adding some sort of small group format to experiment and then iterate, right? Like, start somewhere. And then clarity will be provided through action. And we all know that, right? Like, you’ve got to put a number where your gut intuition is telling you and then reevaluate, run a survey, you know, use your own ability to kind of observe and improve from there.

But, but start somewhere. On the flip side, though, something that they did at the conference, and they used me in this capacity as a speaker, but is to also empower those within your community as you are growing and scaling to step into specific roles of leadership. So scale can also look like building what back in the day Brent Messenger was one of my advisors when HoneyBook had acquired Rising Tide.

Formerly he had worked with the Obama administration to support their campaign in doing grassroots mobilization across the U. S. Now I think he might still be like the VP of community at Fiverr or marketing at Fiverr, but he stayed in the tech space after that and when Rising Tide had really started to take off, you know, and I was one human.

And I had three other co founders and shortly after acquisition, my two other co founders left. And so it was really just like, me and this massive group of leaders, I didn’t know what to do. And he made it really clear that when we talk about community at scale, you will need other people to step in and to reduce the ratio of leader to member.

And so a community of a hundred people could have one leader and be just fine, but it would be even better, you know, with one leader and then four. leaders that roll up under that one leader that can provide more of that one on one touch. And so he called it a snowflake model of leadership, I remember.

And it was sort of like, you know, a hub, and then you have spokes of other people that are supporting the infrastructure of the whole. And in the case of the conference, you know, he, they basically said, Hey, there’s two of us that co founded this conference. Let’s talk about that. There are, what, 150, 200 people here in attendance, but we have a lineup of 15 speakers.

So if each of these speakers rises into a leadership role and can facilitate a supper club, now we’re giving people something we couldn’t before. And so when you think about the infrastructure of your own community, you can also start to evaluate ways that you can kind of, empower those within it to start to rise into roles of leadership.

Douglas Atkin calls it the curve of commitment, right? And so depending on how you build your community, you can think about actually incorporating these leadership roles in that curve of commitment. So someone goes from like interest to member, to facilitator, to regional leader, or like industry leader, or whatever it is, and actually create infrastructure.

Because whether it’s paid or volunteer, there are very deep motivations that all of us have when we’re invested in something or something has invested in us to give back and to be a part of it. And sometimes it just requires you to create the avenue, right? To create the way in which someone can become more involved in a community in a leadership role.

And you can also scale that way. Right? So you can take something that’s. Okay. less scalable, the small group gathering, but you can scale it by creating infrastructure and frameworks for people to actually rise up within your community organization and support you in creating a really extraordinary space.

Pat Flynn: Sort of like a section leader in the band, to tie this off the music analogy and like being a section leader in, of the trumpets. And then the freshmen come in and they say, Oh, that person is a senior. I want to be that when I’m a senior, so I’m going to work hard and, you know, contribute to the band and just everybody’s better because of it.

And then, you know, the leaders of each section congregate and get together and talk and solve problems. And that’s just beautiful. We can think of our own communities in a very similar way and help other people rise up in there and take responsibility, take some stuff off of our plate even to help us out as the owners of those communities.

So that’s fantastic. I really love that.

Matt Gartland: Yeah. And I love the kind of duality of, of even the trajectory, right. Like from within and kind of help to graduate and nurture and elevate, right. We’re starting to do a little bit more of that ourselves, but then also bringing in like fresh minds and diverse opinions and getting honest to God, like different thought, right.

In different backgrounds of business disciplines or whatever sector you’re in, right. Like just More diversity in all its forms, I think, is also a part of the uniqueness, the competitive advantage, the chemistry, the things that really keep people sticky and moving forward together, right? Not just kind of resting on your laurels with whatever methods, strategies, tactics worked in business and entrepreneurship, in parenting, in IVF, my gosh, or anything else, right?

Like, because So much of this stuff changes that at least sings with, I think our ethos, what we’re in by no means have mastered, but we are at least beginning to dabble and experiment with some of this as best we can. So like, again, our EIR experts coming in, you know, from the outside to help be leaders, you know, in the community to share their vast and diverse opinions.

But then some, I would imagine future EIR is even for us might. Come from within right instead of, you know, from the outside per se. And again, we have some amazing folks already that are rising to help facilitate some of our accelerator programs inside of our All Access Pass community. So all of that like the tapestry of it is yeah, I think absolutely dead right not this is a lot of like kind of inside out, or maybe a little bit, you know, inside out community building, like almost like community as a product is how I say it. And that’s true for us. It’s not true for everybody. So what I’m interesting to maybe just explore to kind of fully round out kind of like, okay, where is community been and where is it going?

And a term you mentioned a little bit ago is community led growth, right? So getting a little more maybe outside of just like the community itself and the community building and the community facilitation that is critical, but that where’s, where’s the bridge from that, right, into community led growth from like, I dare say, like a marketing and acquisition standpoint?

Natalie Franke: First of all, I also just realized as you were talking, this is where you can be like, yeah, Natalie has a DHD. This is the Nat, Pat, and Matt episode. Whoa. Did we just uncover that? ’cause I did. As when you literally, when you’re like, yeah, Nat. I’m like, wow, I that, that’s great. This may be your first and only Nat, Pat, Matt episode.

Everyone rhymes. But in terms of community led growth, marketing and acquisition, it’s. It’s by design that my title at Flodesk is head of community and not head of marketing. I do lead the marketing team, right? Like I own Marcom at Flodesk. However, my title is head of community. Why? Because I know that as a company, we will go farther, we will grow, and we will acquire more customers if we first invest in our community before we default to just market ourselves.

That we are moving into an era where it is, you know, more about what can you do for others, for your community, for your member, all the way through how you build the product, right? Like, do you have a public roadmap? Are you taking input and feedback? One of the first things we just did was put out a public roadmap, getting that, that member input and having our product team track that on a weekly basis to be actually led from a truly like product building perspective by the feedback of those that use your platform and perhaps even sometimes more importantly, those who don’t, those who are churning, those who want more or expect more from you. So growth through product design, I think that’s kind of the foundational layer, but then you can also look at it as your viral coefficients. So I have always been very passionate about the concept of word of mouth in the digital era.

Right? Word of mouth, however you kind of splice it, continues to be one of the fastest ways to grow absolutely anything, whether it’s a small business or a SaaS company, word of mouth matters. People tend to forget that, right, in 2024, and we’re always looking for like the next hack to get in front of more people, but it’s not even enough for people to talk about you.

It’s what are they saying? So at Flodesk in particular, like this is something that we are working on right now to build. Today we have our, you know, like a lot of companies do an affiliate program or referral program. Everyone sort of has that right built in. But then the question becomes, you know, from that, how can we accelerate growth?

What does it look like if you take an affiliate program and you actually go one step further and build a smaller group of those who are the most invested and turn it into a partnership program? But then from there, what if you evaluate the different segments and cohorts within a partnership program to empower those in their unique disciplines to be vocal and support the sharing of information or the integration or the like whatever it is that they do in order to scale the growth of the platform. And I did a little of this and saw a lot of this help on the HoneyBook side. And so whether regardless of whether you are a small business or a SaaS company or you’re creating a community, I think sometimes we can forget that our best growth engine comes from those who are a part of our existing member group today. How are we empowering them to talk about what we offer? What tools are we giving them in order to share? What incentives, both intrinsic and extrinsic? So people always default to like the referral payout. And money does serve as a fantastic motivator, especially for entrepreneurs.

It’s not always, you know, the only or even most important motivator. Things like recognition, access to connections and education, visibility, like these things also are incredibly important. And so, I know I’m, I kind of deep dived for a second there specific to like what my team is doing, but you know, again, it’s like community growth means a lot of things.

So yes, building a product also though, supporting the existing members of your community, empowering them with the tools they need to share about what you’re doing and then identifying those areas of opportunity. And so like one of them, like I said, the affiliate program, what are ways in which you can evaluate opportunity within it and really empower the people that are already serving as your word of mouth marketers, your evangelists, right? Your brand evangelists on the ground so that they can keep doing what they’re already doing, but in a way that leaves them feeling more deeply connected, lets them feel and be a big part of the future of what you’re creating. And so in the same way, like this is maybe my hot take, but in the same way that employees of a startup get equity, I foresee a world in the future where brand evangelists and creators that are driving significant amounts of growth for companies will have a significant stake in the success of those organizations. I don’t know whether it will look exactly like equity, but I do think it should look like having a very big piece of the win win pie.

And so I’m curious to see, you know, five, 10 years from now, these creators that are driving like double digit percentage growth, because I’ve been digging got y’all been in the data, like I’ve been in the data since I joined. And I’m telling you, like, it’s incredible what one human can do for the growth of an entire company.

And the question becomes how as organizations or entrepreneurs or small business owners, are we ensuring that there’s an equitable exchange? To where we are truly leading by investing in those people, rather than just benefiting off of their contributions. And I know I just left you with a lot, but these are things I think about every single day.

Things I’m working to ensure that we’re at the forefront of, in my own org, evaluating. And looking at other companies that have done a really great job of doing this and there are no shortage, truly no shortage of other companies in this space that are equally as invested in supporting the community that is helping to build them.

Matt Gartland: Yeah. Just don’t run away with the mic drop, though. I wouldn’t blame you if you did. That was sick. That was great. And if this is a fair, maybe part of it, you’re the expert. But It’s moving from a transactional sort of mentality with like technology and carrot stick sort of incentive patterns right into really genuine relationship based shared prosperity models is a term that I use in different contexts.

I’ve been talking with my team about which is yeah, how can we generate across our network very much in terms of some of the, yes, we still call them referral programs with our members. That is a thing that we have and we’re trying to unlock other aspects of uniqueness and therefore growth, you know, is that we want this to be a rising tide, not to that was your community name.

So I guess we’re all of the same spirit, but yes, very much like move from, away from really like transactional methods that are just all too common and on all to maybe legacy right online because so much of online mechanic, right? It’s kind of transactional and much move into prioritized, rewarded, shared prosperity relationships.

Natalie Franke: I love that, by the way, I’m stealing that. I’m going to attribute it to you, but I’m going to use it everywhere. Prosperity sharing. It’s, it’s a beautiful way of putting it. And I think, you know, referral programs, yes, they’re very transactional, but they are a great place to start, right? Like that’s sort of the foundation, right?

Creating a very simple monetary exchange from if someone refers and they are bringing business in, they get a small cut of it. I love it. And I will never, I will never, never, never hate on it. I’m just excited about. Now what? Right? So yes, and it’s both, right? It’s like, yes, there should be a monetary incentive, but also what doors can I unlock?

And even as we’re, we’ve been, I mean, again, like we’ve been doing a deep dive for our own partner program, and I’ve been doing all of the competitive research and analysis and asking the partners that work with a lot of companies in the space, like, what have you loved about XYZ and their partner program?

Or what have you loved about It’s so fascinating because more often than not, although they will come back with like, yeah, the referral program is great and I get paid out well, so of course I create the content and I’m, you know, leveraging that, but they’ll come back with like, very relational reasons for why they’re invested in one company over another, where they may be affiliates for five companies and maybe three of them pay better than the one that they actually prefer.

But it comes back to things like, you know, I really love them. They’re good people. Like they’ll get on the phone with me. They’ll have a conversation. When they see me at events, they know my name. Like, I heard that multiple times in some of the conversations I’ve had. They know my name. When they see me at an event, they know my name.

Something that simple. And it’s, you know, it’s Dale Carnegie. He says the sweetest sound in any language, someone’s name. And so it’s sort of like these ways in which we can continue to bring about the supporting of our existing community, yes, through monetary incentives and giving them back sort of that prosperity share from the financial angle.

But again, it’s also like, what doors can you open? I’ll give one last example here, too. Over the years, I’ve worked with a lot of educators that have supported small business owners because so much of what Rising Tide did, and then my work at HoneyBook, and now, now the work I do at Flodesk is about kind of amplifying these different educators who are providing great value and content to the community at large, whether they use the platform or just truly are like, phenomenal creators teaching others in the space.

And I will never forget an interview that I did on my podcast with someone who had been, we were assigned together as roommates at an event like a decade ago, didn’t know each other. Dominique Broadway, she is now a big deal, like a published author, a mega financial expert. We didn’t know each other.

We were paired together. And then every opportunity I saw from that moment on for a financial expert, I brought her in. Every time I opened a door, like if I literally, if someone was like, Oh, we need someone to come in and talk about investing. I’m like, I know someone, I know someone, I know someone. And I did that over and over.

She did the same for me, by the way, not like it’s a bilateral exchange, but what’s so fascinating is by opening the door and giving opportunities to those in the community over and over and over again, right? It creates as well this prosperity sharing of, of supporting people on their own journeys. And so it can look like an affiliate, an affiliate commission.

It can also look like really making sure your partners have access to the tables that you get to sit in or sit at and the doors that open for you along the way. And like making that a staple part of how you build a program. And that’s not scalable. It’s not scalable like an affiliate or referral program, right?

But it, it makes a tremendous impact. Knowing their name, opening the doors, finding ways to keep humanity in this age of algorithms.

Matt Gartland: I love it. Wow. Well, that’s. Something of a good landing zone because we’re getting really tight on time. We’d like to end these Nat with just a quick sort of like one, one, one sort of flow here.

So let’s do that. And then you’ve just been so generous today. So let me say that before I forget, but for the one, one, one, we’d love to kind of just sit in this first and foremost, what are you reading right now that contributes either like to your business thinking, or even just like the fun, like I think it’s important to flex both sides of your brain, you know, and Pat you’ll go next, but like, what are you reading right now?

Just like really smart and really enjoyable.

Natalie Franke: Okay. It’s not smart, but it’s really enjoyable. I am reading Bride by Allie Hazelwood. It is her first paranormal romance, and she’s a neuroscientist by trade who writes romance. And so I’m very nerdy myself and I’m obsessed. But what I will say is that although it’s not a business book, I have found reading and reading fiction in particular to free my mind up to play.

And as anyone who creates anything knows, play changes your brain chemistry and it is fundamental for me as an innovator and a creative thinker to remove pressure. remove competition and give myself spaces like that where I can read a book, walk into somebody else’s world, a universe world building, you name it.

I’m obsessed, but it makes me a better entrepreneur to not actually read business books and instead to read paranormal and fantasy romance.

Pat Flynn: I think that’s marvelous. Pat, what about you? Yeah, mine, not necessarily a business book, but also not fiction either. I’m reading Outlive by Peter Attia I’ve been learning a lot about, as I’m now in my forties, I’m longevity and trying to be here as long as possible to help the most people and be with my kids.

And so preventative things that we could do to fight against what he calls the four horsemen. And I, I’m not going to get into it, but these are the most common ways that people start to not live to their fullest, you know, and it’s not just about lifespan living longer years. It’s, it’s what he calls health span.

I want to live long. And be able to do the things I want to do, not just live long for the number. So that’s, that’s what I’m reading right now.

Matt Gartland: I will second that read, I read it last year. The Peter Attia book is really, really great. So double recommendation there. For me, I’m a history nerd, have been for most of my life.

My father was a military pilot. Both my grandfather served. So I particularly love the world war two era. So I’m reading Masters of the Air. It’s now a big show on Apple TV from Steven Spielberg and Tom Hanks think like Band of Brothers sort of stuff. I am just continually inspired and amazed by the bravery of that whole generation.

And I particularly love aviation. The show is amazing. And then I heard it was based on a book because most great things are. Went and got the book realized it’s like 500, 600 pages. So I am slowly making my way through it, but it is masterful. Absolutely masterful. So yeah, I get a lot of, a lot of value out of that on a lot of levels.

Well, really to bring this maybe then for landing today, the one tool that you’re using today, Natalie, we’ll let’s go back around the horn. That’s just helping you in work in life with focus, whatever it is right now, that’s really helpful for you.

Natalie Franke: Oh, okay. It doesn’t have to be a tech tool, just like any.

Matt Gartland: It does not.

It can be a physical tool. It could be, Hey, like I need to spend a lot of time just cooking. Cause that’s how I relax and live. And here’s my new cooking tool. I don’t know.

Natalie Franke: Yeah, no. And it probably ties up with what Pat said around outlive, but my walking pad, I bought a walking pad a year ago. for my desk, standing desk, walking pad, and I’m, you know, I’m kind of like a meme at this point with how much I use it, but it has completely transformed the way in which I live every day.

I walk anywhere from like five to eight miles a day on that walking pad and it’s been life changing, truly life changing.

Pat Flynn: Amazing. I’ll go and then Matt, I’ll have you finish off. So I’ve, I’ve spent probably too much money on video equipment over the years because I always think, oh, well, the next one is the best one, but this was actually, this one, this latest purchase is actually the best one that I’ve seen for the work that I’m doing right now across all my YouTube channels for social.

And it’s called the DJI Osmo Pocket 3. It records vertical, And in horizontal and it is on a DJI gimbal. So you look pro it’s 4k. It’s amazing. It’s easy to use and it’s fits in your pocket. It’s the most beautiful thing that I’ve ever purchased. Osmo DJI Pocket 3. Natalie, have you discovered this tool yet?

Natalie Franke: It’s in my cart right now. I had a call with my social media manager this morning. We’re going to a big like trade show in Vegas next week and I was like, we need to buy it. I’ve been looking at it. I’m getting all the ads I need. So all right, I’m buying it now. Oh yeah. I’ll let finance know you recommended it.

So now I have to.

Matt Gartland: Okay. Sweet. Justification sold, done.

Natalie Franke: Done.

Matt Gartland: Mine also, interesting overlap with some health stuff. I don’t have the walking pad yet. More and more people like you are telling me basically that I should. So, okay, it’s probably in my future, but I have gotten a pair of Xero shoes. It’s X E R O.

They’re very minimalist. They’re very designed to promote like good posture and like all of that stuff. Right. And I am like addicted. I wear them. I mean, All the time until I like, I need to like dress up or which is not often. So it’s like my, my new Xero shoes are just like, they’re on my feet all the time.

They’re fantastic. Excellent. Well, another amazing roundtable in the books. Natalie, thank you again for being here. This was a delight. I hope it’s not the only Matt, Pat and Nat show. I very much hope that we can get the band back together at some point. Where can people go to learn more about you? We didn’t even acknowledge, this is terrible of me, that you are an author, you do your own stuff.

Maybe that’s a part of the hook here. But yeah, where can people go to check out more of your work?

Natalie Franke: Yeah, absolutely. So I am an author. My USA Today bestselling book, Gutsy, came out in August, so you can find Gutsy wherever books are sold. But I’d recommend just come find me on Instagram. That tends to be my little zone and corner of the internet where I spend the most time, just at Natalie Franke on Instagram.

And if you ever want to get plugged into Flodesk, you can also find me over there. So here to support you in any way that I can on your entrepreneurial journey.

Matt Gartland: Oh, right. Well, that’s a wrap for today, everyone. Thanks so much for listening into another super special round table episode, and we will catch you next time.

Pat Flynn: All right. I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Natalie Franke. You can check her out again at Natalie Franke, F R A N K E, on Instagram. But of course, definitely check out her book, Gutsy. As well as Flodesk and HoneyBook. I mean, she’s just involved in so many great things. And her communities are thriving.

And we’ve learned a number of things from her. And I hope that you did too. So thank you, Natalie. Thank you for listening all the way through. I appreciate you. I always love these special roundtable episodes. They don’t come very often. But when they do, they always hit hard. And I hope there was something that you could pick up from here.

Let us know what you thought about it. At Pat Flynn or at Team SPI on X, hit me up on Instagram. Appreciate it. And I look forward to serving you the next episode. Cheers.

Thank you so much for listening to the Smart Passive Income podcast at SmartPassiveIncome.com. I’m your host, Pat Flynn. Sound editing by Duncan Brown, and our executive producer is Matt Gartland. The Smart Passive Income Podcast is a production of SPI Media and a proud member of the Entrepreneur Podcast Network. Catch you next week!