SPI 797: A Niche Podcast Success Story with Dr. Yishan Xu

SPI 797: A Niche Podcast Success Story with Dr. Yishan Xu

Yishan Xu: The way I talk about knowledge, how to connect with audience, how to make the knowledge sounds interesting, that ability definitely grow over the years. And, but that’s something I think I practiced, especially through the podcast. I think I’m still learning and learning from you and from many others, how to tell a good story. I think I’m still in the journey, but I think I’m better and better right now, how to pass a professional knowledge to the general public.

Pat Flynn: I actually vividly remember the moment when myself and about a dozen other people were in a room together and we came up with the perfect name for this woman’s podcast. And this was back in 2019. She and a number of other people flew to San Diego and we did an in person live podcasting workshop. I taught what I taught in my courses online in person.

It was one of my favorite things to do. And to talk to people to learn about them to ask deeper questions to really get into it was one of my favorite things. And of course, I wanted to do that more, but then the pandemic hit and I couldn’t do that anymore. Anyway, 2019, we’re all in this room. And Dr. Yishan Xu, who studied sleep, who has a PhD. All around sleep and she just couldn’t come up with a name for her show. And then it hit us all together Deep into Sleep. And I remember collectively just the whole room lighting up and Dr. Yishan lighting up as well. Now it’s one thing to come up with a name for something and it’s great to get excited about that, but it’s another thing to follow through.

Well, Dr. Yishan definitely followed through because what she’s been able to build since then. And remember, she was starting her podcast from scratch. She had a clinic. Still does. She’s not full time online, but she’s built this incredible brand and not only does she have the podcast, she has 188 episodes and counting, so she’s stuck with it.

But what the podcast has done for her and how it’s been able to help add to course sales and other things that she’s been doing, plus her ability to also create content in Chinese. So she’s bilingual and she has Chinese content and Chinese specific information, even in different industries now within the medical field, she’s just crushing it.

And so I’m very, very grateful to have the opportunity to catch up with Dr. Yishan today and to have her speak to you about all the things that are happening. And I dive into a little bit about the story and where she’s going as well. So here she is, Dr. Yishan. You can find her at Deep into Sleep. If you need some help with your sleep, that might be a great place to do it. And we’ve got some other resources for you as well. But here she is, Dr. Yishan Xu.

Announcer: You’re listening to the Smart Passive Income Podcast, a proud member of the Entrepreneur Podcast Network, a show that’s all about working hard now, so you can sit back and reap the benefits later. And now your host, his son is playing the exact same trumpet he played when he was in high school, Pat Flynn.

Pat Flynn: Yishan, welcome to SPI. Thank you so much for being here.

Yishan Xu: Very happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

Pat Flynn: Now we connected a long time ago, pre pandemic actually, you had come to one of my workshops to learn how to podcast, and I’d love to know kind of what was going through your mind before our first class together.

I mean, you signed up to this thing. Why did you sign up and what were you hoping to get out of that?

Yishan Xu: Yeah, I actually listened to your podcast for a while before I signed up and the, your podcast and your energy really helped me to build my own business at the first place. And then I started thinking about, you know, I love passing knowledge to the public and maybe I should consider a podcast, but I also believe we should learn from professionals to do professional things. So you are one of the best in the podcast world. So I was thinking if I learn from you, it possibly can save a lot of time, energy, and get a good start.

Pat Flynn: Well, I appreciate those kind words and you definitely came and you showed up and you and several other students kind of worked together. We created a little kind of tiny family around that time. I remember I wanted to do more of those kinds of workshops, but of course, the pandemic made that very difficult, but I’m curious.

Tell me about the podcast that you had started then and tell me kind of how it’s going now.

Yishan Xu: It’s so funny, like after your lead and you actually create a name for me for the podcast called the Deep into Sleep podcast. It’s still going.

Pat Flynn: Nice.

Yishan Xu: So originally I was learning sleep medicine. I was shocked by a lot of knowledge. I want to share those to the public, but then nice surprise after I started the podcast is I was able to connect with so many sleep doctors around the world. Even those like big names. I would never imagine I would connect with them directly. And now you can see I have a lot of books behind me. So when a sleep doctor write a new book, sometimes they will find my podcast and contact me, give me a new book, even a signed book sometimes, and wants to talk about their knowledge on my podcast.

So I have been really enjoying that journey.

Pat Flynn: I got goosebumps when you were telling that story. Cause it’s one of the amazing things that can happen when you, when you put your voice out there and you start a show. And I remember coming up with that name kind of live with everybody Deep into Sleep. I see your beautiful artwork here and you have 188 episodes now, so still going strong.

Yeah. Still going strong. What have you learned over the last few years since starting the podcast? Besides obviously the relationships that you have built, maybe what, what is a unexpected surprise that, has come about since starting the show.

Yishan Xu: I think definitely the way I talk about knowledge, how to connect with audience, how to make the knowledge sounds interesting, that ability definitely grow over the years.

Right now I have my own team in my group practice. That’s something else I do other than the podcast. My team said, well, I talk, it sounds so convincing. And, but that’s something I think I practiced, especially through the podcast. And if you are a doctor in the field, you need to know what you are talking about, but how can you deliver that confidently to the public and also how to make it interesting.

I think I’m still learning and learning from you and from many others, how to tell a good story. I think I’m still in the journey, but I think I’m better and better right now, how to pass a professional knowledge to the general public.

Pat Flynn: Oh, that is so smart. And thank you for sharing that because I always talk about that.

The ability for, even if nobody was listening, the benefits of the podcast. When you hit record, you need to think a little bit about how you are going to present the information that is in your head. So you might write it down or you might structure it or practice first before you hit record. What do you do before you hit record?

What are you doing to prep for those episodes? I’m curious.

Yishan Xu: I followed what you taught me long time ago. I remember you mentioned it’s more like coffee chat, right? Yes. So I have to chat with guests, even though this first time I ever seen them, many of them are either sleep company CEOs or big name professors or doctors, but I share the same thing with them and help them relax.

Many of the professors actually are quite nervous to get on a podcast. So we chat about topics, what they want to talk about. Do and what I should help them promote all that. And it’s very easy and quick. I feel like my prep was five minutes up to 10 minutes. No more than that for the most part.

Pat Flynn: That’s great.

That’s how I approach it as well. So that the audience and I can be on the same page. Sometimes when I listen to podcasts, if it feels like the host and the guest are on a different level, I don’t feel that connection. That’s not to say research can help. There’s a lot of great podcasters who go into deep research and ask really amazing questions.

And that’s good too. I think we, we each have to find our own style. So 188 episodes in now. I also know you have an online course to go with your sleep material. Was that there before the podcast? And if not, when in the podcasting journey, like around what episode number did that course come out?

Yishan Xu: Yeah, the whole podcast is about sleep medicine.

And then personally I treat insomnia. So the course happened after the podcast podcast was the first thing I was trying outside of my normal day to day clinical work. And after I do the podcast, I like it. And then, you know, In your community, you always talk about what other things can you do? It needs to be a package.

It’s a community building. And then what you can offer, what kind of value you can offer to people. So I’m thinking, well, treatment is treatment, podcast is podcast, it’s two different things. So the course possibly happened after 100 episodes. It’s not that long, but before I’ve made it online course, actually led some groups, treatment groups for real patients in both China and America.

So I have faced that revised that material multiple times to make it better before the course.

Pat Flynn: I see. So you ran live cohorts of people through this material several times before then turning it into something online. That also is great too, because it kind of validates the idea of creating the course.

You know, you wouldn’t create the course if you weren’t sure if people not just wanted it, but also got results from it. Did you take those results from your initial cohorts of students and use those as sort of ways to promote and testimonials for the online course. Like, I’m curious when you got to around episode a hundred and you were creating your online course, how did you market that?

Because that can be a big jump for a lot of people who have in person practices to then promote online. What was your strategy when you launched?

Yishan Xu: I was not very good at it based on my background, but I tried first, definitely got testimonial from the past patients. Nice. And of course, anonymous feedback, I put them online and made a landing page and make it a searchable on my website and the promote around different local, like I have a Chinese version, English version.

So local Chinese groups, other things, even Stanford, because they helped me promote within their clinic because we are using similar method. It’s evidence based treatment. Yeah, I learned at Stanford and I use that material and make it better for my clients. So as a credential, like certified, you know, sleep medicine provider.

So they sometimes refers on clients to my course as well.

Pat Flynn: Wow. Did they just do that kind of on their own or was there, did you talk to them to kind of establish that relationship and got them to promote your course? That’s really neat. How did that happen?

Yishan Xu: It’s an empty market. I would say no Chinese course available using this method treating insomnia so far within America, at least possibly in many other European countries too, because I got referrals from England before.

Pat Flynn: Oh, wow.

Yishan Xu: Yeah. So after I created the Chinese one, I’m the only one they know who are qualified, well trained, and they train us, they train me, so they know my materials are legit. And actually, when I run my patient group, I collaborate with a professor within Stanford, and we even publish papers. And we went to conference together presenting how effective the treatment is.

And the material I revised, so they know my material well, they know this is helpful. And that’s the only Chinese version available on the market. So they just automatically helped me promote.

Pat Flynn: Wow. That’s amazing. So you have a number of things working in your favorite here. You have the first to market, which is wonderful.

And I love how you niched into that. You have these relationships and obviously proven results. So with that mix, I mean, it’s, that’s very smart and it’s no wonder why you’re doing so well with that. I’m curious when it comes to the ongoing promotion, like outside of referrals, do you have a strategy, like a marketing strategy to go from podcast to email to sales and is the course always available or is it kind of open close?

Tell me a little bit about how that runs.

Yishan Xu: For me as a psychologist, I don’t want to put too much stress on myself. And I have so many different interests, so I think running a cohort based group is a little bit hard. That’s why after several rounds, after enough evidence and data, I start getting this course online to make it evergreen course.

But what I offer is I offer weekly Q and A session, kind of like following what you are doing. I like how you still be available and provide live Q and A. I’m trying to do that too, but only when there are people by the course. So you will be surprised people don’t sleep well, come with waves. Normally when one people buy, suddenly several people buy.

Pat Flynn: Interesting.

Yishan Xu: I don’t have to be there online every single week. But if someone buy the course, I will be available online to offer Q& A for at least four weeks for them. And they can email me, ask me questions.

Pat Flynn: For a particular amount of time and then, and then that’s, that’s it, right?

Yishan Xu: Everyone gets 15 to half an hour, but if there’s multiple people, there’s no more than one hour for each Q& A session.

Once a week.

Pat Flynn: Got it. Okay. That’s really nice. You know, I offer office hours, as you know, for our courses, but that’s kind of just every week in perpetuity, at least as the courses exist. And a lot of people worry about that because they don’t want to commit to it forever. And I think having it be a certain number of weeks after a transaction is really smart because then you know, there’s an end date.

You have a, a point at which in the future, let’s say, for example, you want to move on to something else, then you know that you’re not locked in forever. You can fulfill those and then move on, which I think is really smart. So that’s a really nice compromise. In terms of your course, again, I just, I really love how you promoted that.

What were the big hurdles for you? I know you said earlier that you weren’t an expert in marketing or selling online. What were some of the harder parts of getting things set up because it seems like it’s pretty automated now at this point, which is, which is really nice. But I also know that for everybody, there’s going to be some struggles.

So what were the challenges for you when you were setting this all up?

Yishan Xu: Yeah. Learning new softwares, how to make it work. But the biggest challenge still, I think is marketing. I also took your email listing course and I’m trying to do that. I do have email lists. The problem is I feel like I’m spreading myself too thin.

I’m running a large practice. I have some Chinese podcasts and this Deep into Sleep English podcast. I also, you know, have my academic appointment, I’m affiliated with Stanford and so many other things. So it’s harder for me to find time to really market consistently. So I’m behind on writing email newsletters.

I’m not sending it out after every of my podcast episode. So promoting wise, it’s really, sometimes if I have time, I will promote it. If I don’t have time, it’s just whoever can search it online. So I think that’s, that’s always a challenge for me. I don’t have business background, so hard to navigate.

Pat Flynn: Yeah.

I mean, that makes sense. And you, you definitely are a busy woman doing a lot of different things. So it makes sense that, you know, the marketing often is the thing that gets put aside because you know, the creation is the fun part and the being with your clients and all these relationships. You know, it is important to find ways to promote.

But I think within that, just for everybody listening, you know, there’s a million ways to promote. And I think if you just found one way that worked for you, just lean into it. You know, maybe the way that you promote is actually through these relationships that you’re building with these educators. And despite not having the time to write a whole bunch of emails and create these really fancy campaigns or funnels, You know, you have a very big, unique advantage to utilize these relationships that you have, which come with a lot of weight and potentially a lot of reach as well.

You know, perhaps there’s other relationships at different universities or other people at Stanford, for example, that could help amplify this in different kinds of ways. You know, you don’t necessarily have to add on. You can just kind of double down on what is working and sometimes that’s a lot easier.

So just, just a little bit of advice.

Yishan Xu: I like that. Yeah.

Pat Flynn: If we were doing a coaching call, I’d probably dive into that a little bit more.

I do want to ask you about, you know, you like many of our listeners are bilingual and have a number of different languages that you could utilize for amplifying your superpowers and educating people. I’m curious to know how difficult that is to go back and forth and kind of use both languages. And does that kind of just double the amount of work for you, or do you find that they sort of help each other out when you use both of those. I’d love to learn a little bit more about how you balance, you know, the Chinese content that you create and the English content that you create.

Yishan Xu: Good question. I’ve been struggling with that for years. I think when you’re setting up anything bilingually, it’s double work.

It’s just after a while when you have a system in place. It’s actually could be less work and they really help each other. That’s how I got my group practice running. It’s a bilingual or multilingual group practice. It works out really well. But originally when I set up the website, it has to be two languages.

Every time I write a blog article. It needs to be both Chinese and English just for the search engine, right? For the SEO. And then even when I do YouTube channel and podcast, I was like, okay, if I do English first, it’s very competitive already. And I also have an accent. Sometime my audience will comment on my accent.

I don’t mind once I pass the information clearly, but I’m worried I’m gonna miss another a whole bunch of audience will speak another language better. So I have to do both language podcast and the YouTube. So it’s like double or triple amount of work when you set up everything. And sometimes it’s hard to equally distribute all the content into two languages.

Pat Flynn: I mean, you’re right. The English market is just so much bigger, but there’s less competition in your other language. So how do you balance, are you still doing both languages or are you kind of leaning toward one more than the other? Is one working better than the other? I’m curious.

Yishan Xu: I think actually Chinese market works better for me for everything I’m doing, mostly just because not much information available out there for what I’m doing or psychology, mental health topic sleep topic.

I have a new specialty, sex therapy, right? For all that Chinese knowledge, a legit Chinese content from a professional, it’s hard to find no matter on YouTube, a podcast or everywhere. So because it’s, it’s not quite there it’s much easier for me to be noticed and gather a large amount of audience. For English channel, I, but I feel like if I live in America, I do business here.

I should definitely cover that part. So then I start only recent years, I start making more like video content in English. I definitely noticed the shrink of the audience is because I’m not quite established there. So what I’m trying to do is make YouTube video, for example, with bilingual subtitles. No matter the content is English or Chinese, it’s just more amount of work.

If I have time, I’m trying to do that.

Pat Flynn: That makes sense. Do you have Chinese courses as well? In addition to your English courses?

Yishan Xu: Yeah. My insomnia course, for example, why is in Chinese? Why is in English? Actually, my Chinese insomnia course is selling much better than the English course.

Pat Flynn: Oh, amazing.

Yishan Xu: Yeah. I have other Chinese courses for like parenting and I’m making one for sex therapy for men’s sexual dysfunction disorder, actually. Hopefully I can launch it this year.

Pat Flynn: Amazing. Well, great job on that. I’m curious as far as a person who’s not creating courses in English. What are you using for platform? Because I know some platforms don’t have other languages available to them. And so tell me about the, the systems that you’re using for the delivery and your, your LMS, your learning management system for, for Chinese.

I’m curious.

Yishan Xu: Right. I’m just using Kartra for everything because it’s all in one. It has the data. Even I switched my email list to Kartra. So I used to use the one you are connected with, the ConvertKit. I actually like ConvertKit better, but just to pay once and everything in one place, I use Kartra right now.

I have to say they don’t support Chinese that well. The course content is fine in the landing page and in the course page. I put Chinese there, it’s all there. But some drop down menu and the one I tried to market it on the descriptions, it’s hard to have Chinese. They just don’t support it.

Pat Flynn: Can you spell that software for everybody who’s listening?

Yishan Xu: Yeah. Kartra.com.

Pat Flynn: Kartra. Okay. Great. Thank you for that. I haven’t really explored that one.

Yishan Xu: I know quite several therapists using that. It’s kind of expensive, but it’s all in one place. So it works for me.

Pat Flynn: Is there any particular reason why it’s beneficial for somebody in the medical field more than somebody else?

Is there something special about that platform for a doctor or a therapist?

Yishan Xu: I don’t really think it’s especially for doctors. It just happened. I know some therapists using it. It works for me because as a clinic, as a group practice, we have quite several courses. My therapist also create courses. It may not be the best business strategy.

I don’t know. But since we have so many courses that we have to host in one place, this platform allows that, and you can see the data on each page, how, where people, how many people visit, where their eyes that’s been most time on through the other page to how we, you know, revise things later.

Pat Flynn: Nice. Now you’ve probably seen at SPI and I know because you’re in pro that obviously community is very important to us and bringing people together.

And I’m curious on your platforms, are you doing things to bring your clients and your students together to connect with one another? I also know that in a lot of medical professions, you actually don’t want to do that because there’s a lot of clients who aren’t really wanting to kind of show that they have, you know, some of these problems or things going on.

But I also know that it can be beneficial to have those people connect with each other. So I’m curious to know how far you’ve gone with community inside of your stuff. Are they just taking courses, getting what they need and then leaving? Or are they staying? And if they are, what are they staying on and what are they doing?

Yishan Xu: Right, so for the sleep content, I don’t have a group just for exactly the reason you mentioned. I don’t want my patients know each other or my clients is confidentiality, right? But for my sex education video, I do have a free WeChat group. That’s just a very beginning. I have it and they all like talk about similar content.

They share a resource with each other. I just leave it there. I thought about building a Circle community, just like what SPI Pro does, but I don’t know whether they’re going to support Chinese or people from China. So it’s just harder for me to really understand how that works in the Chinese community.

So I haven’t really built it up, but I feel like for some of my educational channel, no matter it’s sleep or other topics, it’s totally okay, to build a community. It just won’t be around my treatment course because the course is interventional, then it’s a little bit ethical issue.

Pat Flynn: That makes sense. You had mentioned WeChat that as a, as a way that your audience is connecting on the Chinese education channel.

What is WeChat exactly? I’m not too familiar with that.

Yishan Xu: Okay. WeChat is a very popular Chinese software. Every Chinese basically, especially they are from mainland China. They would know that. Definitely have that. That’s how a lot of Chinese do business using WeChat, not only connect with friends and family.

Also, there are a lot of groups there, setting courses and building communities. It’s like WhatsApp, but it’s like stronger function.

Pat Flynn: More than messaging.

Yishan Xu: Yeah, message, you can put some pictures, videos, you can share a lot of different things.

Pat Flynn: Oh, okay. I feel like I’ve heard about, like WeChat has, Like your medical records on it.

You can shop with it. You can, it’s kind of like an all in one thing. So you’re going to where those people are already in creating communities so they can connect with each other, right. Versus, hey, here’s this separate thing, right. Come and sign up for this and kind of create more friction. Yeah. It’s always great to bring your people together and have them discover that they have shared similar problems and challenges that could help support each other. I think that’s really great. So, Yishan, I’m curious to know what your plans are for the next year. You have this podcast, you have this amazing chorus, you’re doing a lot of bilingual stuff, YouTube channel, your practice, obviously, and the groups that you’re doing.

One year from now, I’m curious to know kind of what your vision is, what’s, perhaps working for you and, and are there new things that you’re launching or what are you doubling down on? Tell me your plans and maybe we’ll hold you accountable here to that.

Yishan Xu: I probably need that. So I think for my time is split into two different things.

One is my clinical practice. One is my online social media, like free, this kind of self marketing thing. So for the self marketing part, as I mentioned, my plan is to launch one sex related course, because it’s very much needed by all my audience, my Chinese audience. Secondly, I want to write a book just because one of my Chinese YouTube channel has so many followers.

I have some videos got huge amount of views. I want to organize all those things. educational material into a book. So I already started, but very slow. So I do need you hold me accountable.

Pat Flynn: Tell me about the book. What’s it going to be about and kind of what are you hoping to, to do with it?

Yishan Xu: Yeah. So it’s going to be a sex educational book and I want to put a lot of basic, but educational and scientific information there.

To help people understand their body, their partners, their relationships, especially sexual interactions. Not a lot of people talk about that in Chinese in a scientific way. So I want to guide people with skills and clarify some myths and reduce the anxiety around it. My plan is to use food to talk about sex.

So how people understand it is not too much different from eating a meal. So that’s going, since I already have so many videos out, I have the transcript, I have a lot of research I already collected as evidence, so I just need the algorithm nice in a nice way and tell a nice story. That’s something I’m still working on, and hopefully if the book is out, I can build upon that, build some communities and other things.

Pat Flynn: And that plays a role with your courses that you’re going to be launching in that arena.

Yishan Xu: Yeah.

Pat Flynn: And that that’s wonderful. Do you happen to have the same kind of relationships in that space that you do in the sleep space as far as, you know, universities and higher ups in education too?

Yishan Xu: My colleagues in Stanford knows that actually I got some referrals from Stanford here and there for treatment wise, but that’s limited so far. I’m still building up, but I’m trying to join professional organizations to join their communities. I just joined the two in this field. So that I think can help me connect with more people.

Network further to spread the words out.

Pat Flynn: You’re doing an amazing job. I’m so inspired by all that you’ve done and are accomplishing and will accomplish ever since we connected in 2019. I just, I’m so inspired and I’m so happy for you. I definitely think that there is an opportunity where we get to come back together in a year or two and kind of check up on you and see how things are going.

And maybe, maybe that’ll be enough to hold you accountable for these things. I, I bet you would do it anyway, but just a little bit of support from, from myself and the listeners for you. That is wonderful. I’m so excited for you. If you wanted to tell people where they could go to follow your journey and learn more, feel free to mention any places that you’d like right now.

Yishan Xu: Yeah. I think if people want to know more what I’m doing, they can just go to my website at mindbodygarden.com. And I have pages linked to all my channels and podcasts, YouTube, and my blogs, and that’s also connect to our practice. So one place for everything, basically. Okay. And also my podcast is DeepIntoSleep.co.

Pat Flynn: Deep into Sleep. We are currently at episode 188. Keep up the good work, Yan. I’m so proud of you and I’m so excited to see what comes out of all this. So keep up the good work. Thank you.

Yishan Xu: Yeah, thank you.

Pat Flynn: All right, I hope you enjoyed that interview. One of my favorite things again is just uncover these success stories that we at SPI have played even a little bit of a role in, and you know, she was very graceful and I am grateful for all the kind words that she said about kind of the work that we’re doing and how I’ve been able to help her and I’m here to help you too.

So if you want to join this community and be a part of the conversations that are happening, come on in. Just head over to SPIPro.Com. We’d love to see you there. Anyway, be sure to check out Deep into Sleep with Dr. Yishan Xu and can’t wait to see what she comes up with next because she’s doing great things.

And although she’s doing a lot, it seems like she’s balancing it out very well. And continues to use that unfair advantage. She has as not just a first to market, but also there’s relationships she’s built. That is so important. And again, one of the huge benefits of creating a podcast are those relationships that can be built. You’ll never know exactly how that might actually help you until you get started. So thank you so much, Yishan.

Thank you for listening and I look forward to serving you next week. Here on the SPI podcast. Cheers.

Thank you so much for listening to the Smart Passive Income podcast at SmartPassiveIncome.com. I’m your host, Pat Flynn. Sound editing by Duncan Brown. Our senior producer is David Grabowski, and our executive producer is Matt Gartland. The Smart Passive Income Podcast is a production of SPI Media, and a proud member of the Entrepreneur Podcast Network. Catch you next week!