SPI 670: How to Win Big in a Recession—Roundtable with Jason Feifer and Matt Gartland

SPI 670: How to Win Big in a Recession—Roundtable with Jason Feifer and Matt Gartland

Jason Feifer: What’s the point of building something if you can’t maintain it? And that to me was the gut punch. And I’ve thought about that line a lot and I’ve repeated it a dozen times to a dozen friends who all face the same situation, which is that they are building something and they feel incredibly stretched and they’re doing way too much. It’s not to say that there aren’t times where you’re gonna have to work incredibly hard, but we have to start making decisions about what matters and what doesn’t and where we invest our energy and where we do not. So that ultimately we’re on a path of something that is able to be maintained.

Pat Flynn: Hey everybody. Pat here with another Friday episode. But this one is very special because I’m not alone. I have a friend in the house with me. What’s up, friend?

Matt Gartland: Hello, it’s Matt. Thanks for having me back on Pat. This is awesome.

Pat Flynn: Yes, and this is very special and I want to credit you because this is gonna be a fun thing that people will have to look forward to every quarter because we’ve had some fun things happen in the world of, of this podcast.

And why don’t I hand the mic over to you to tell everybody what’s going on and, and what’s special about this and what they can look forward.

Matt Gartland: Well, thank you. Yes. The exciting news is that we have joined the Entrepreneur Magazine podcast Network. So if you have enjoyed the magazine, the actual print publication, it’s phenomenal.

They do a lot of great work online as well, and they are rolling out a podcast network and invited us to join and we’re thrilled. So this special episode, this is the first one of these is in collaboration with them, and we’re gonna do a quarterly round table episode that we’re thrilled to host here on the SPI side.

Pat Flynn: Right. And, in this round table, we’re gonna be able to talk about subjects that are relevant right now. Talk about kind of news and how they might matter to you with another voice in the house, not just myself, not just Matt. Matt is actually gonna be leading these round tables, which is really great, which you’ll hear in just a minute here.

But we’re also inviting Jason Feifer. Jason Feifer is the editor-in-chief over at Entrepreneur, and he’s got an amazing podcast himself called Problem Solvers, and he writes incredible articles. And so, yeah, what could we expect in today’s episode as far as topics, Matt?

Matt Gartland: Yeah. Some really important stuff for entrepreneurs at every stage of their journey and kind of into any industry right now.

So we talk about jobs like in the job market, especially here, you know, in the States where, you know, things are improving in a macro sense. But for those of us online or, or those of us that are sort of in this like quote unquote information sector, right? There’s actually continued adversity. You know, we think about like tech layoffs.

We hear this news from like Facebook, even Spotify, you know in the realm of podcasting. So it, it speaks to this, you know, really interesting moment for us as entrepreneurs to take more opportunity for ourselves, right? To really try to, again, have a career built on our own terms. So we step into that with Jason and kind of thinking about entrepreneurship, you know, at a bigger level and really how important it is right now to potentially, you know, make that choice to start a new venture. Or again, if you are already an entrepreneur in a great space it is a really powerful thing to be doing right now for your financial future.

Pat Flynn: Yeah, that and a few more topics that are relevant, which you’ll hear right now because here it is, the round table with myself, Jason Feifer, led by Matt. Here we go.

Announcer: You’re listening to the Smart Passive Income Podcast, a proud member of the Entrepreneur Podcast Network, a show that’s all about working hard now, so you can sit back and reap the benefits later. And now your host, he’s looking forward to a trip to Japan for the first time ever in the near future. Pat Flynn.

Matt Gartland: Gentlemen, this is so fun. Pat, Jason, first Round Table episode, and collaboration with Entrepreneur Network. So I’m glad we’re getting this off the ground.

Jason Feifer: So excited.

Pat Flynn: It’ll be fun.

Matt Gartland: Yeah, and there’s a lot that we could unpack and you know, thinking about these episodes now on a quarterly basis, like it gives us, I think, an opportunity from SPI, from Entrepreneur and other voices we’ll get into the mix going forward to even like zoom out and like, think about the entrepreneurial landscape, maybe bigger picture and, and more so than we maybe in the day-to-day nature of, of at least our side of things on SPI have a chance to do. So would love to even just kind of start and we can jump right in with kind of the bigger picture about jobs right now.

You know, we’re still kind of coming out of some effects around the recession, you know, and, you know, from our side on SPI, we’ve seen an increased attraction to starting your own thing and entrepreneurial pursuits in the wake of this. Jason, maybe I’ll, I’ll tee it up for you and I’ll wave in some numbers in a little bit, but yeah, what are you seeing and hearing on the entrepreneur magazine and network side, kinda in this space around, you know, how jobs are, you know, changing in the job market landscape?

Jason Feifer: We’re seeing something very similar to what you’re just describing there. I, I mean, I had this theory for years after the 08-09 recession that it was a trigger moment for a generation to think about entrepreneurship. Because back then you had people coming out of college, but also people who had established careers who were all learning this very important lesson, which was that the only person who is really always going to be looking out for you is you.

And that translates into an interest in entrepreneurship and building something, if not a company for yourself than at least a side hustle or some other way to think about how to support yourself and understand yourself and to own who you are to build some kind of value and purpose that you feel you have control over.

And then we saw that play out exactly again in the pandemic, where there was a more than decade high in new business applications and an absolute surge of interest over an Entrepreneur, and I’m sure with you guys as well, because we’re all serving people who have those same instincts or are searching for how to harness those instincts and I haven’t seen that abate, and I think that what we’re going through right now, although, to be clear, and I think you should bring in some of the numbers, Matt, because. What we’re seeing is scary for a lot of people and disruptive for a lot of people, lot of layoffs. But let’s also keep in mind that this is not an across the board economy thing.

Small businesses, for example, are still growing and hiring at a pretty strong rate, and the layoffs are not solely contained in tech and media, but some of the most high profile ones are because they’re happening at some of the nation’s most high profile companies. But that doesn’t mean that there isn’t a tight labor market elsewhere.

Matt Gartland: Exactly. I’ll come to the, the numbers here now, and then Pat I’ll throw it to you too. Certainly for your, your origins, of course. But it’s interesting that in terms of when we’re recording this, we’re doing it in March and the February jobs report just came out today. It’s kinda serendipitous timing. So in February overall there were 311,000 new jobs added in terms of the US economy.

So that’s certainly a positive number. It’s a little bit down in terms of the overall up number. From January. In January, the US economy added 504,000 jobs, so there is improvement, but what I found particularly interesting when you kind of dig in into the, like the different market segments that at least the government is putting out with these numbers, the quote unquote information market is down. Right? And that’s heavily in tech. You know, Meta parent company Facebook has been laying off thousands and thousands employees. They just announced earlier this week that they’re gonna lay off thousands more. We’ve seen even in the podcasting space, specifically like Spotify, iHeart Media, like doing layoffs.

So in the information space, those of us that are doing things online or our knowledge workers, we’re still struggling. My overall takeaway, so Pat, I kind of put it too, maybe with, again, your origins and especially being so vested in podcasting and some of these other disciplines.

Pat Flynn: Yeah, and you know, I’m very versed on tech and I read a lot about it.

There was a lot of talk about the fact that the reason why there’s a lot of layoffs right now is not just because of the macro economy, but also just for the previous couple years, people were on a hiring binge, just like so much good talent. Let’s get as many people in as possible. And then now they’re like, oh, that was maybe a little too many.

Let’s, let’s kind of roll back a little bit. Which is sad because you know there’s a lot of great talent out there that really doesn’t know what to do. And Jason, you’re, you started out and I thought you were like literally talking about my story cuz I started in 2008 at the recession and I had this career that I was ready to dedicate my life to and I still got let go.

You said the words that I always talk about, which is the only person that’s in control of your destiny really is, is yourself. And so, you know, it is sad that a lot of people are losing their jobs, but it’s also an amazing opportunity if you are open to those opportunities. And what’s beautiful now is there’s many, many more people out there teaching entrepreneurship and helping people discover what their talents are and where they might be able to go. There’s a lot more options. You could become successful on TikTok. TikTok wasn’t around in, in 2008, but at the same time, there’s also that information overload. There’s too many options, if you will, and there’s a seemingly a lot of competition, but I really feel like if you can nail down who your audience is, who you’re building something for, a solution for, you have all the tools accessible to you now more than so in 2008 to make something happen.

But it’s, it’s about the filtering of all that information and actually the application of that information that’s really gonna help you, help you moving forward. So it is an interesting time, but we are seeing a lot of people coming our way. I’m getting a lot of messages from people who’ve more recently heard about my 08 story and are really resonating with it because they’re going through. right now as well.

Jason Feifer: You know, and, and I just want to double click on what you just said there about how this can be a really important time and a big opportunity for people. Something that everyone should keep in mind in a moment of disruption is that you are not the only one being disrupted. Everyone else is two, which means that people have new needs and those new needs are not gonna necessarily be met by old incumbents, which means that now is actually a great opportunity to look around and say, how can I be useful to other people?

And that’s the reason why you see in moments of major disruption really interesting new ideas come to the fore that may not have really been able to ever get a foothold in earlier times. Classic example, of course, is Airbnb, which came out of the 08-0 9 recession, and the idea of letting somebody stay in your home, the idea of renting out a room in your home would have just been way too crazy to people until the economy was such that people were scared into trying new things and exploring new solutions and a, a, a, an amazing new business and model was born. That can happen in large and small ways right now,

Matt Gartland: And I think it speaks to some of perhaps the underlying motivations in these harder, you know, more adverse moments.

You know, one being, you know, necessity. There’s this, my gosh, again, Pat a part of your story, I believe, right, is like, I, I need to now positively kind of try to take control of the situation that maybe I feel like I’ve lost control of, I’ve lost my job, or I feel like I might lose my job and there’s increasing uncertainty.

So yeah, I, there’s a necessity driver and then also like a resiliency driver. Like I, I need to somehow get myself through this, this moment, my family through this moment. So, I should start building something on my own as a solopreneur in, and just bootstrap something. And it, you know, it doesn’t have to be raising venture capital or, or kind of going that route.

It can, can just be, and I, and we’re certainly seeing and hearing this consistently and increasingly just on the SPI side is, you know, we want, to form or you know, sort of the average person and member coming into our communities. Like, I wanna create a calm business for myself. I don’t wanna raise money. Like, I just wanna create something that replaces my income, can operate on my own terms, I can grow it comfortably. You know, and, and those are their definitions of success. So I’m curious, Jason, like again, in terms of the readership across the Entrepreneur publications and landscape, you know, how do those themes kind of compare or even contrast?

Jason Feifer: Oh, well, first of all, I love, that you were talking about, personal definition of success, so incredibly important because the greatest mistake we can make is start to build things or measure ourselves against other people’s definitions of success because maybe that’s not what we want. Also, maybe that’s just not attainable, and not every business needs to be the next billion dollar business.

But if you don’t know what it is that you want to build and you haven’t thought through exactly how to get there, then you’re gonna be subject to what you think you’re supposed to build or what other people tell you you’re supposed to build. Before we even get into business, I’ll just share with you the most memorable conversation I’ve ever had with somebody about the idea of defining success for yourself. And it came from my friend. And Andrea Bartz is her by and large she goes by Andy and, and she is now a bestselling New York Times bestselling novelist. But I’ve known her for a long time and her first couple books did not come anywhere near hitting the bestseller list.

And when her third book did, I called her up because I wanted to know, and we recorded it for the Problem Solvers podcast on, on the Entrepreneur Network, what she had been thinking through those other books that allowed her to keep going to get to the point where she became a best seller, and her answer was that she had very consciously, from the very beginning, defined success for herself this way. Success is getting the ability to write the next book. That’s it. It’s not about how many you sell. It’s not about making a list. It’s about literally just being able to write the next book and therefore, all the previous books were a success for her. And also because she’s not going to change that definition of success.

She’s not psyched out that her third book did really well. And now is she worried that her fourth book isn’t gonna do as well? No. She gets to write the next book, and that’s success. And that’s the whole thing. And you need to be able to apply that kind of thinking to whatever it is that you are building.

I mean, Matt, you just talked about people running out and getting the, you know, do they need to get investment dollars or maybe not. You know, I love Shark Tank, but a mistake that Shark Tank has made is in introducing to people the idea that every business requires an investor. It’s not true. I’ve talked about it with Barbara Corcoran.

She very well admits that this is a bad lesson that people have drawn from that show, and that in fact, almost all the companies that show up on Shark Tank in the real world would never get that kind of investment dollars. You don’t need that. You just need to build something that’s sustainable and that’s on track for what you believe success is.

Matt Gartland: So Pat, for you, how has that, that exact same thought process evolved, you know, from the early days of your pursuits online? Obviously the origin story of SPI, you’ve written several books, you have some very big successes already you’re writing another one. So yeah. How, how did that kind of process for you?

Pat Flynn: Yeah. In fact, this is largely disgusted in my new book that’s coming out and it’s this idea of fine filter focus is, is really the process. You gotta find the thing inherently is the thing that you really are passionate about or wanna do, or is your goal , but then you have to filter all the noise out there to go and find the things that are actually gonna help you.

Right? We, we are in this consumption behavior model as podcasters and, and entrepreneurs. We like to consume, you know, more, way more than we like to take action on. So filtering and then actually focusing on that, on that one thing until it gets to a point. But then the funny thing is, when you get to that point where of success, now the, you’re at a new level, now there’s new challenges, now there’s new information, now there’s new opportunities coming, and then very common, you’re almost in the same exact spot. Maybe you have a little bit more money, but now you’re maybe sometimes even more confused or more just unknown of where you want to go or what the next steps are. That’s why you see a lot of businesses just kind of fail or, or, or plateau. So, you know, new levels, new devils, as you say.

And so for me, over time it’s been, you know, first it was like survival and then it was like, well, becoming financially free for my family. And then, you know, philanthropic efforts after that and kind of expanding outside now of the world of entrepreneurship. And now talking a little bit about personal development, which is, this book is my first step into a little bit of that.

But, you know, the, the funny thing when, when you’re talking Jason, is, is that totally reminded me of a student of mine. I was coaching her and she was a brand new student of mine, and one of the first questions I always ask is, well, what does success mean? And her answer very similar to many other people’s answer is, I want a million dollar business.

It is like it, she didn’t hesitate. And that was a very common answer for something like this, because that is a nice, fun headline, nice fancy number that we all strive for. A million. Good, big number. Yeah, exactly. But then I said, well, why a million? And she started to stumble on her answer and I said, well, can, can you break down exactly in in your life in a happy life for you?

You wake up, you’re enjoying life, you’re enjoying what you’re, how much money would you actually need for that life to happen? And when we did all the calculations, it took her a couple days to get back to me. She came back on the next call, almost like in tears, because she realized that she was trying to build a million dollar business when she didn’t even have to.

It was $150,000 she needed a year, which is a completely different business model. She could just have. 20, 25 clients paying her a certain number per month to get to that level versus, you know, building the next Uber or whatever. It, it completely changed the direction of what decisions she was going to make from that point forward.

So I really appreciate this conversation about, just before you even jump in, you have to jump inside of yourself and understand, well, what does success mean to you? So hopefully you, all of you listening, can take that and, and, and run, before you start, you know, just diving headfirst into this.

Matt Gartland: And we try, I’d say with great deliberateness on SPI to, you know, describe pursuits in terms of, you know, our audience’s own terms of success.

You know, pursue financial independence on your terms or find success as a creator on your terms and not attempt again with deliberateness to forecast or portray, you know, what success should be necessarily for them. There’s certainly a common denominator of, again, finding a full-time income that can support yourself and your family, but there’s no hardened number there.

And we also weave in, you know, talking about just work-life balance and energy levels and, you know, how can we still maintain joy, you know, the fun side of working for yourself and, and not lose sight of that as well as a part of the creative process. You know, these things are important as I’d say, like inputs.

I also think about it, man, I, I’d love the stories you guys are telling here. In terms of just skill building, like, like, so Pat, you know the, a lot of the themes of the new book you’re working on around filtering and focusing like, these are skills, these are skills to practice and to apply to arguably anything in terms of an entrepreneurial pursuit, whether it’s the branding, whether it’s the, you know, the creative publication, a podcast, a newsletter to the business model itself, you know under the hood.

So it’s, it’s refreshing and I think really important as we kind of, again, zoom out to larger macroeconomic trends of people trying to find, you know, something of traction where, where can I put my energy? Especially if there’s uncertainty in play and. Again, potentially reacting to a job loss situation or there’s adversity that’s occurring, you know, more deliberateness to these levels of skills, I think is going to produce longer term results that, you know, even going all the way back to a comment you made, Jason, on the front end to be like generational in nature.

Like if you want to build something that can, you know, be successful and sustained and maintained, you know, well down the road, you know, these are great skills to center now and pursuit of any entrepreneurial endeavor.

Jason Feifer: I, I have to, conversation that I had recently, which just builds really nicely off of what both of you actually just said, which was that I was talking to a psychotherapist named Catherine Morgan Schaffler.

She just wrote a book called The Perfectionist’s Guide to Losing Control, and she has a chapter in the book about how we should reframe productivity because the mistake we make is that we think of productivity as how many tasks did we accomplish? What did we do with our time, time management? But what we really need to do, she says, is we need to, and this she, she credits to, you know, to Tony Schwartz and, and some others in work. She didn’t come up with this herself, but she’s really processed it and sharing it in this way, which I, I found really powerful is to talk about how productivity really should also be about energy management and that things that preserve and grow your energy, should be thought of as productive.

Sleep is productive. Spending time with friends is productive. Taking a break is productive. Because of course, if you just burn yourself out on trying to maximize time, you won’t have the energy to do more with future time. And so I, I, when she said that to me, I said, oh, this is really interesting and powerful, but what would you say to somebody who’s listening and says, okay, that’s great in all, and I understand the point of energy management and thinking of different things as productive, but also I started my own business and there are 16 hours worth of things to do, and I only have 12 hours to do them.

What am I supposed to do? To which Catherine said, what’s the point of building something if you can’t maintain it? And that to me was the gut punch. And I’ve thought about that line a lot and I’ve repeated it, she said that to me about a month ago, and I’ve repeated it a dozen times to a dozen friends who all face the same situation, which is that they are building something and they feel incredibly stretched and they’re doing way too much, and they don’t know what the end point is of any of this. And I said, what’s the point of building something if you can’t maintain it? It’s not to say that there aren’t times where you’re gonna have to work incredibly hard, but we have to understand what we’re building towards and what we’re building towards has to be something that looks sustainable.

And so we have to start making decisions about what matters and what doesn’t and where we invest our energy and where we do not. So that ultimately we’re on a path of, so, Is able to be maintained.

Pat Flynn: Mic drop. That’s powerful.

Matt Gartland: Yeah, that’s amazing. And again, I, I think it pervades, you know, different market segments.

So again, with folks listening, you know, you can do that as a real estate agent, you know, if that’s sort of your entrepreneurial pursuit. I have a couple friends here that do really well, you know, running effectively their own business as, you know, a real estate agent and they have affiliations with, you know, like a, a larger enterprise, but, that’s fantastic.

It, it even reminds me, Jason, you had a really great article for Entrepreneur recently kind of profiling Louis Howes, right, you know, so another skill, another like critical thought process, you know, I think, at least to me, kind of symbolizes and, and supports this, you know, around re around transformation and sort of reinvention.

You know, one, am I building, is it consistent with sort of a bigger mission? How am I managing maybe my energy there in, in the article? You know, you did a great job kind of highlighting some of the really hard decisions that Lewis has made throughout his career to, to maintain or, or refocus his efforts, you know, in a way that was authentic.

Right, and pursue data. Would love to kind get some maybe added insight from you. Yeah, about that article.

Jason Feifer: So I appreciate that. So, yeah, you know, we, I profiled Lewis Howes, who, for those who don’t know, just built an enormous brand for himself a, around the concept of greatness. He’s got the School of Greatness and he has a new book that just came out and I wanted to understand how he had built strategically his personal brand.

And what was so interesting was to learn about the many, many phases and experiments that he has gone through. I mean, he didn’t start as this inspirational life guy. He really started as like a sports marketing guy who was driving marketing courses on Linked. And it wasn’t until much later that he iterated himself into the version of Lewis Howes that he is.

And I, I think that he largely attributes this to his willingness to constantly reinvent, to work on the parts of himself that he wasn’t in touch with. And he, Lewis has a very dramatic personal story. There were lots of, a lot of therapy and things that he had to work on with himself, but I’ll tell you the part of our conversation stuck with me the most was him talking about how he recognized that there are a lot of people in this space and you cannot control what other people do. You cannot control what other people say. You can’t control how much like the things that you are doing are gonna be kind of like somebody else. But what you can do is identify the things that are in your control and then maximize those.

And for him, the thing that was most in control was his own story and the way that he related to his audience. And so he decided to build upon, and understand his story and understand how to tell his story and how to refine his story and connect and connect and connect with people and not worry nearly as much about the things that he couldn’t control.

And when he said that, I just started thinking back about all the things that I have grappled with myself, you know, I had a book that came out in September that, that I, I was on your show to talk about and people kept asking me, my editor, my agent, my publicist is, is the goal, one of the lists is the goal to make the lists?

And I was very, very conscious in saying no. I said it to them, but I had to first say it to myself. And the reason was cuz. I can’t control that. I cannot control whether or not I make the best selling the New York Times best selling list. And you know what? I didn’t. But if my measure of success was that, then I was giving control to somebody else about my own experience.

So I wanted to make sure that I was defining success to go back to it on what things I could control. What I can control is how good is this book? What I can control is how do I connect with others about it? Can this be a meaningful thing for other people? Can I get out there and just pound the pavement and use every contact that I have to do the best that I can to amplify this thing?

That’s what I could control, and that’s the only thing I focused on, and that’s what Lewis said too, and that’s what I learned from him.

Pat Flynn: Lewis has been on the show a couple times. He was on the show to talk about his book as well. He’s, he’s definitely gone through some, some stuff in his life, but I’m so proud of him.

I’ve, I’ve kind of was a friend of his back in the LinkedIn days. Huh. You know, he, he had this career set for football and then got injured and then had to, that was like his first big pivot in life that was derailed from where he thought he was gonna go. And it’s had to happen a few times actually.

But what you just said there, Jason reminded me, My layoff going back to the recession. You know, I was pretty depressed for a few months and I was sitting there. I was mad. I was mad at the economy. I was mad at my boss. I was upset. I questioned whether or not I did all the things that I could because of something I couldn’t control. The economy. There was nothing I could do to have changed anything really. And even though I did all my best, I still got let go. And I felt like it was my fault or somebody’s fault when it wasn’t until I woke up one day and I was just like, what I can control is what I do. So let me figure out what that might be.

And then I got into a online business community. That is where I met a lot of people who I’m still friends with today. And that’s where I started to learn about business and put things into place to help architects pass an exam and then later a Smart Passive Income. So you’re absolutely right. I mean, it’s very easy to, to place blame or to sulk or to, you know, and, and, and it’s okay to be upset.

It’s okay to be frustrated, but at the same time, when it’s about things you can’t control, there’s only like, what else could you have done? Right? So I love this idea of setting goals that are very much based on the things that you can control. And if you so happen to make the list, then that’s a, that’s an awesome bonus.

That’s great. Right?

Jason Feifer: Sure. Exactly. Totally. We, we spent, we spend far too much energy debating whether or not something should happen when it has already happened. It is just, just is not a good spend of energy. Instead, we need to spend that energy deciding what to do next because it happened, right.

Matt Gartland: And then at least as a representation of Lewis’ story and, you know, Pat your own, and I mean, I’ve been through some partner stuff, Pat is aware of, we talked about Jason on, on your show a little bit, but to go back to Lewis, like when he was really successful and, and people knew him in the face where he was running these, you know, six figure mastermind events, right? But he reached that point and realized like, that’s not gonna help me achieve this figure mission that I have.

So he made that choice to leave that behind and get into a process or at least a moment of, like giving up some revenue, right? So it, so, but, but choosing to align himself better, you know, with that source of purpose and focus, and then transform and, and reinvent himself and be willing to go through the process of getting there, to me is just, you know, not only inspirational, but you know, in terms of, again, like the skills that I think entrepreneurs can, can learn and practice and, and view into their own efforts. Like that’s such an important one and, and one that frankly, you know, pat and I are doing at SPI, where, you know, going forward, and we, and we’ve talked about this a lot obviously, but you know, we’re a community company now, we’ve completely reinvented, you know, the business model and that’s not easy.

You know, going from a place where we have been tremendously successful in, in past years with like one time purchase D I Y courses, and those are still really valuable, but you know, we have much stronger conviction these days on, you know, how we think about nurturing and controlling sort of the impact that we might be able to make on students that want to learn the skills that we’re teaching.

And you know though, I would say that we don’t have total control, but we can have more control and are just aligned better with our purpose in terms of, okay, we can create and we can control community environments and we can invite people to participate and to join those communities. So, you know, and it’s again, not easy in terms of like underlying business economics and, you know, helping a team transform from A to B is, you know, change is is hard, but for us, it’s worth it.

And again, kinda speaks to I think, some of these important skills that entrepreneurs can invest in and, and have confidence in, you know for the long haul.

Jason Feifer: Yeah. The, I mean, just quick additional context there is that for those who don’t know Lewis’ story well enough, he had built a business that was doing very, very well, but he was thinking of the podcast as largely feeder for his masterminds and his courses. And then he was organizing these masterminds, which means that he was ultimately broadcasting to millions of people for the purpose of identifying 20 or 50 of them that were gonna pay him a lot of money for a very impressive weekend or week. And he said that was just taking up so much of his time and energy.

It became unsustainable. He came up with this mission for himself. This was the, I guess you go back to what’s the definition of success, which is he has this kind of crazy line about how he wants to impact, I can’t remember what it is, X million people’s, I think it’s a hundred million. A hundred million people’s lives.

Weekly or something. Yeah. But, but that helped and you know, that sounds crazy, but what it helped him do was filter the decisions that he makes. Is he gonna get there by spending this much energy on masterminds where he’s really serving a very small number of people and everything else that he’s building is just feeding towards that?

Or does he step back, make a hard decision, very similar to the ones that you’re describing right now for SPI and, I’m going to refocus on what is ultimately going to grow this business, even if in the short term, it means that there’s gonna be some pain and some disorientation as I figure out how to build the next phase of this thing.

Cuz you know what? It’s pretty easy in a way to just keep going with whatever seems to work. It’s a lot harder to say, you know what? I’m gonna change before I bust. Before I’m forced to, before the thing that I’m doing right now actually reaches a breaking point. So let me do it on my terms. Even if it means feeling like I’m taking one step back, I will ultimately be able to open a door and take infinite steps forward.

That’s what he did. That’s what you are doing. That’s what everybody needs to do. You gotta change before you must, you have to do it on your own terms.

Matt Gartland: Well said. That’s fantastic. More than just talking and reporting on these things, which is always a joy and, and it’s a lot of fun. How are you guys practicing intentions and, and these skills in your own work? How do, I’ll maybe start with you here. So in terms of, again, trying to work in public and, and lead by example, I know that’s important to olives here. What’s one really important project, and it doesn’t have to be one of our SPI projects per se, you know, that is just really in focus for you, that hopefully is, is also sort of a symbol for some of the stuff we’ve been hitting on today.

Pat Flynn: Yeah. The first one that comes to mind is the All Access Pass with SPI, I mean, we are trying to reinvent how online education is for entrepreneurs because, you know, a lot of it is trying to go to where the puck is going, not just going to where the puck is, but in addition to that, we have numbers, right?

We started seeing declining completion rates from our courses, and even though courses we’re still selling, we have to ask ourselves, well, what is actually most important here? And ultimately long-term, what is gonna help this business? It’s the success of our students. And so if the success of the students are going down because of just macro environment or just online courses aren’t how they used to be.

And truthfully, everybody has all the information they need accessible to them if they really wanted to find it now. So it’s not even just about the information anymore, it’s how is that information delivered? How are people being held accountable? How are people going through this together? So we developed All Access Pass credit to Ashley and our team who we hired to help build this curriculum out.

And Jillian and, and community director, everybody has been so fantastic because it’s, it has been like trying to push a boulder uphill a little bit in a place to where it’s never gone before, but we knew that the view would be nice up there and now product market fit it’s like pushing the boulder downhill.

It’s like exactly where it needs to be now, right? So we had to push it uphill a little bit, which was hard, but now we’re at a point now where we’re seeing such success with it that it’s starting to take a life of its own. In fact, we just did a, a launch recently that that performed very, very well. And for many people, they DM me and said, this is like the most no-brainer thing you’ve ever offered, Pat and you.

It wasn’t like that in the beginning and we’ve made some mistakes along the way, but here we are. And, and that’s really, really exciting. And then maybe the other thing on the side that, that I am very much open about that a lot of people on SPI, especially those who come to my office hours talk about, cuz I always give people updates, is my sort of side project.

I like to spend 80% of my time doing things that I’ve already committed to, said yes to team related things, SPI. 20% of my time is like experimentation from 2017 to 2019. The, that experiment was a physical product called the SwitchPod with my videographer Caleb, and that did very well, and that’s still running, and it’s mostly automated at this point, being fulfilled by 3PL, et cetera.

But starting in 2020-2021, I started a, YouTube channel about this little thing called Pokemon, which many people know is a game, cartoon, trading card game. Well, this channel’s kind of gone bonkers. It’s now approaching 600,000 subscribers, 130 million views. It’s generating revenue now, and it’s a small agile team.

And, and more than that, I’m, I, I’m going to like Japan this summer to go to the world championships and stuff, which is really neat. It, it, it is super fun. But what’s really interesting is I tie it back into SPI and especially Superfans, the book I wrote, it’s like building, it’s all about building community and how do I create a specific language there and how do we, you know, lean into who these people are, how do we build for them?

And one thing I am building is an event in June. This year I’m hosting an event for the Pokemon community. And the creators there to meet the fans and the fans to to meet each other, and the creators to meet each other. And the cool thing about this is, without spending a dime on advertising, we have just sold our 750th ticket.

And the beauty is when we look at the numbers, it’s like, where are these tickets coming from? They’re not even coming from the big A-listers that are on there. Right. Those people are great to have. That’s a equivalent of having like Gary Vee or Tim Ferris come to your conference, right, but because it’s so lifting up other members of the community. We have the B, C even, I don’t know, I don’t wanna say D or F but like the lower level creators on YouTube are on the website saying they’re coming and they’re the ones that are talking about this event more than anybody else because we’ve made them look like a hero because it is about them.

But now they have proof. They’re showing the website, guys go to Card Party. I can’t believe it. We’re gonna be there. And then their community’s like, you made it. Oh my gosh, this is so cool. I’ll see you there. How do I get tickets? Where do I go? And it’s just taking a life of its own. And so this idea of community and, and, and just providing the space for people to come together and, and to highlight those and spotlight those members of your community, just lifts the entire community up. And people notice that I’m now being told that I’m one of the most valuable people in this space right now because I’m doing things nobody’s ever done before.

People say it’s an overnight success, but then I have to remind them, I started this journey in 2008. I just happened to create this channel in year 12. Right. But it’s just, you know, a fascinating example and it, I think it really inspires a lot of people because I didn’t know anything about Pokemon two years ago and here we are.

So hopefully that encourages a lot of you.

Matt Gartland: No, that’s great. Where can folks go if this is the right ask of like to learn more about Card Party

Pat Flynn: Card.party. Is the website.

Matt Gartland: Card.Party. That’s pretty sick. And of course for all Access Pass. Yeah. Folks haven’t yet checked that out. Where, where do people go?

Pat Flynn: SmartPassiveIncome.com/allaccess. I gotta say it’s, it’s probably the best thing we’ve ever created here at SPI over the years. And it’s like the results and the, the feedback is just incredible and, you know, to the completion rates are just off the charts and, and it’s exactly what we needed to do.

And yes, per what Jason was talking about earlier, it’s like we are taking a little bit of a hit up front for that. Like it’s, you know, we’ll, we’ll make more money selling a $499 course for a one time payment than, you know, the equivalent of $59 a month. But over time, especially for delivering value, everybody wins so much more. And, and that’s, that’s why we’re here for the long term.

Matt Gartland: So Jason, what’s the big thing you’re working on right now that, you know, deserves a, a lot of attention?

Jason Feifer: Yeah. Well, so I, Pat, I loved those stories and just quick things that they made me think about was number one, when you were talking about what you guys have done at SPI in the way in which that shift was driven by a recognition that if those, if those, what were the completion rates or what, what you said was going down, yeah, on the courses. And that the most important thing was the success of the people who were taking them and, and, and of the people in your community. It makes me think about something that I picked up from friends of mine, Adam and Jordan Borstein, who have a consultancy called Pen Name and a thing that like to talk about with their clients is whether or not something is a door or an engine. So imagine that you’re going down the car, the road. Imagine you’re going down the highway in a car. If the door falls off, that’s bad, but you can still drive. But if the engine falls off, you’re not going anywhere.

And so it’s always worth evaluating when you see something shift, do you have a door or do you have an engine? Like what kind of problem is it? Because if it’s a door, then you can just kind of fix the machinery of it. Maybe, maybe the product needs a tweak, but if it’s an engine, right? If you’re seeing that, if, if, if success of your of the students is the most important thing and you’re seeing completion rates go down, then you have an engine problem because that’s actually the core of the value of the business. And therefore it’s time to think about how else to serve people in a way that’s gonna be most meaningful. And so I think what you’re describing there is a real perfect example of how to go from look at whether or not something is a door or an engine, recognize that it’s an engine, and then make an important fundamental shift that.

Ultimately is gonna drive incredible value, even if in the short term it requires some kind of reorientation.

Pat Flynn: I like that analogy too, because the engine is under the hood. You don’t necessarily see it if you’re just looking at the car from the outside. Right. The door might look shiny. It’s perfect. It, the door works.

I can sit in the car, but you can’t go anywhere unless the engine works. So in your business, those of you listening or watching, what is the engine that drives to continue, the pun, the business, the door doesn’t drive the business right. The engine does. So I I, I, I appreciate that analogy, Jason.

Jason Feifer: Yeah. And then and then the Pokemon thing just, just reminded me about how we, we often think, oh, that space is so, it’s so full, there’s so many people doing something there already. There’s no way I could contribute something new of value. And what you’re proving is that that’s not true at all. Actually, sometimes if something is really crowded, it means that everyone is doing exactly the same thing, which is the perfect opportunity for someone like you to come in and do something brand new.

So just another way for people to think about that. For me, I’ll tell you something that I’ve been working on personally outside of Entrepreneur. I have a newsletter and I have grappled for years with trying to figure out , how to make this newsletter a meaningful part of my ecosystem. And I’ll tell you the quick journey.

I started a newsletter not really knowing exactly what I wanted it to be. This was years and years ago. I called it the Feifer Five because I just couldn’t come up with a better name. And I was like, the concept is that I’m Feifer and I’ll write five things. That was terrible, right? I mean, I got a couple thousand subscribers out of it.

It doesn’t mean anything, right? Like why would you subscribe to this? It broadcasts absolutely nothing about what its value is. I then changed it to align with the book that I was gonna come out with, which was called Build for Tomorrow, and the book is about how to recognize opportunity in change, which is fine as a subject for a book.

I found it to be a hard one to do weekly as a newsletter cuz it’s just kind of abstract and it was hard to communicate what the value was week in, week out in this newsletter. And so I got it to about 20,000 subscribers, but it really, I just couldn’t get it past that. I had hit an absolute ceiling and then about a month and a half ago I was having a conversation with Lenny, whose last name I always forget how to pronounce of Lenny’s newsletter. Do you know how to pronounce his last name? I don’t, but I’m familiar with the newsletter. So Lenny, he writes this newsletter for product people and it’s got, you know, north of 325,000 subscribers and he does very well with it.

And we were talking about how to build a successful newsletter and he said, and you guys know this well cause your master’s at it that you really need to define your audience and the value and, and make it, it doesn’t have to be a kind of ultra niche product, but it has to have a very, very specific audience so that there are people out there who say, ah, this is for me.

And it doesn’t take a lot of work to get them there because they just see it and understand it. As he was saying this, I was think this is the mistake I’ve made all along. I have never really been able to communicate that. And in fact, because I haven’t been able to communicate that to others, I haven’t even figured out how to communicate it to myself.

And so I said to myself, I am going to rebrand this newsletter one more time and it’s gonna have a specific purpose and it’s gonna be very clear what it is. And what I came up with was a newsletter called One Thing Better, and it would be each, one way, this is the line I came up with, one way to improve your work and build a career or company you love.

And now, yes, that’s still very broad in that it’s not just for product people or for some very kind of specific audience, but I’m thinking, you know, I already reach a fairly broad audience, so what if I just narrowed in on the value prop instead? And then also built in some expectations that I think people have of newsletters, which is that, oh, I got too many of them.

They go on too long. So I wanted one thing better to be like, look, I’m not gonna hit you with a million things. It’s gonna be very, very manageable. It’s one thing. And then also that gave me. A way to think about the content. It made it easier to produce this newsletter because now I knew what I was looking for every week instead of some random essay that I would have to write. You guys, I mean, Matt, I texted it to you. You guys have been in it already because the conversation that we had for Problem Solvers, which then I put in Entrepreneur Magazine, I then had further thoughts on and put into one thing better, which was about how agree to disagree is the wrong way to think, and the one thing better would be disagree and commit, which is something.

You guys taught me and is I know, foundational to, to your relationship and we can expand upon that, but. It’s been very interesting. It’s only been a few weeks since I made that shift, but already I get more responses to this newsletter. Already the subscriber rate has gone up and I’m really excited to see where I can take this now.

Pat Flynn: Congratulations, Jason that’s awesome.

Matt Gartland: Incredible. Yeah. Big props. Where can folks go to check out this new version of the newsletter?

Jason Feifer: Oh yeah. Thanks. You just go JasonFeifer.com/newsletter is a, a fine place to go. That’s JasonFeifer.com.

Pat Flynn: Nice. We’ll pop that in the show notes and stuff.

Matt Gartland: We could spend another hour talking about newsletters. So, sorry, Pat.

Pat Flynn: Yeah, no, no. I was just gonna, plus one on getting specific with that. I, I want people to take away how important that lesson is. I mean, we had a very, very long debate, if you will, inside of SPI, about our new newsletter Unstuck. And it wasn’t always called Unstuck, but once that term came in and, and that resonated with the people in our audience who are stuck, well get unstuck. And, and that’s where that came from. So that, so there’s very clear value just built into the, even like wide shot to even subscribe to this, right? I mean, there are a few people out there who just because of who they are in the name, people will subscribe and, you know, no matter what.

But you gotta really understand like, well, what’s in it? What’s in it for them? And so that is a really good case study, Jason, thank you for sharing that. And, and we’ll put the link in the show notes and everything. People to go and check that out. Yeah. Thanks.

Matt Gartland: Well, I appreciate you both sharing. I’ll share quickly myself and a lot of my stuff is maybe the engine under the hood to Pat’s add-on reference there where it’s kind of invisible sometimes.

But I I, I love being kind of this stealthy guy. So my big thing are new partnerships especially for us at SPI. And because this is the first episode, it’s kind of fun to even highlight sincerely, like that we have signed on to the Entrepreneur Network. I’m so excited about that. There’s more things we can be doing together and sort of in this moment in, maybe some attempt here to tie together a lot of themes from at least the conversation today around resiliency and around reinvention and around, I would even add, we didn’t maybe go there earlier, but as entrepreneurs trying really hard to not have ego and you can’t get it to zero probably, but like get in the way.

You know, like, and be willing to be like, okay, the thing that was the golden era and the glory days of a model seven years ago or three years ago. Like, we need to say goodbye. Because it’s not working as well or because again, it’s not consistent with how we wanna operate and serve, right? So a big part of what we’re trying to do, and I’m thrilled to be leading on for us, is, you know, how can we really rethink and sharpen, you know, our vision going forward with partnerships?

And it’s just a genuine thrill, Jason, with you and Terry Rice, who’s a fantastic contributor and meaning John Deep on the podcast network and a lot of other names, I don’t mean to have this be like a an Oscar celebration speech.

Jason Feifer: But, you’re right. The music will start playing in.

Matt Gartland: It’s it’s great, it’s thrilling that, you know, this is happening and is emblematic of how I think, you know, a lot of hopefully listening can think about, you know, the importance of relationships.

You know, kind of, you know, being the connective tissue to a lot of the work that we do. And to the extent that, you know, in your own entrepreneurial efforts, you can find genuine partnerships, you know, that can be exciting, that can challenge you, that can, you know, really push you forward in a way that you need to be pushed.

Right? It’s certainly true in a microscopic, intimate way between Pat and I that Jason we talked about on your show. So yeah, that’s, that’s my work right now is with a lot of focus there.

Jason Feifer: I love that. And that reminds me of fun research term that I think about a lot, which is the false consensus effect.

The false consensus effect is the mistaken belief that other people think like you because of the false consensus effect. We don’t often turn to others to ask what would they do in this situation, or how did they solve this problem? Or what ideas do they have because we just figured they, they think like us. Whatever ideas they have, I already had, and that’s not true. Of course. And one of the amazing thing about partnerships is that once you start working with somebody else who you’re really aligned with, They’re a flood of new ideas. That is already, we’ve already seen that in the very short amount of time that we’ve been working with you guys now on the Entrepreneur Podcast Network.

In that, I mean, Matt, the very first time we talked about this, you had like 20 ideas for things to do, one of which is what we’re doing right now, which these round tables, and that was awesome because those were things that had not come up in conversation inside of Entrepreneur, and that’s exactly why you work with smart people.

Matt Gartland: Thank you, and again, just the beginning, at least for us. So so stay tuned, so to speak. We’ll wrap up here guys, and we wanna be snappy for everyone listening, but again, we’ll wrap up with something I’m calling today, even Jason wasn’t intending to, to steal this necessarily from you , but like 1-1-1, so like real sharp focus.

So what I’m curious to wrap up with for folks is to give them something tangible that’s, that can maybe start using or consume and, and really help them again with their entrepreneurial pursuit. Pat, I’ll, I’ll start with you. So here’s what we’re looking for. We’re looking for one good read, one tool and one result that’s really in focus for you.

So let’s start with one good read right now.

Pat Flynn: Yeah. I was just having lunch with somebody the the other day and it reminded me about this book, A classic book. We’ve all read it or hopefully, and if not, you should. How to Win Friends and Influence People. I think now more important than ever, with the rise of AI and jobs and all the things happening in the world, the people part of it is gonna be. of utmost importance. So How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. A tool that I’ve been using recently that I’ve really loved is, is an AI-based tool. I’ve been diving into the world of AI and this tool was recommended to me by a man named Matt Wolf and it’s called My Mind. And so it’s similar to an Evernote and other things where you can sort of like find an article, find an image, and save.

But typically in those tools, when you save something, you need to do a good job of organizing it or else it’s just gonna be a complete mess, right? You need to categorize them, tag them, put them in folders, et cetera. With My Mind, whether it’s on an app or my desktop, I can save the thing and then I can move on.

And when I, whenever I want to go back, I just go to MyMind.com and essentially I have a search bar for my brain and it, the AI will categorize it all for me. It understands what’s on that picture. It understands all the things that I’ve put into this bucket and has already done all the organization for me without me having to do any manual tagging or anything.

And it’s been pretty fascinating. It’s, you know, I’m buying a new truck soon so I can start doing kayak bass fishing. So I’ve been saving a lot of those things, and it’s been really helpful for me to go back and just be like, what were those options I had, again, for all those things. Oh, they’re all there.

It’s, it’s pretty fascinating. Fascinating. So that’s one read, one tool. And what was the last thing, Matt.

Matt Gartland: Result. And kind of even hearkens back to how we think about success, which is a fluid thing. It evolves. So like what, what’s like one metric or result that’s really important to you right now?

Pat Flynn: Yeah, I mean, it’s just energy. We talked about it earlier, but I’m feeling a good energy and that means the boundaries that I place around my work have been working and I, and I just wanted to remind people how important that is because productivity is not just adding more things into the time that you get back.

It’s almost allowing that time to just be so that you can recharge. And, and I know that’s not a very specific metric, but that is something that I do track and, and pay attention to.

Matt Gartland: All right, Jason, how about for you? We’ll start with one good read.

Jason Feifer: Yeah. Well, I, so I already shouted out this book, so I’ll just amplify it here at the end, which was The Perfectionist’s Guide to Losing Control by Katherine Morgan Scheffler.

I don’t identify really as a perfectionist, and also just full disclosure, she wrote the book primarily for women, but I had such a great conversation with her that I checked the book out anyway, and I just found it an incredibly useful way to think about navigating things that you think about yourself that are limiting and how to reframe them in a way that are not limiting.

You know, the, the book is very much written for people who have come to feel that their perfectionist instincts are holding them back or are complicating their lives. And Catherine’s argument is basically, You cannot change fundamental things about yourself, but you can definitely change how you think about those things and use those things.

And I found it a very enlightening book. And so I would, I, I’d strongly recommend it, the Perfectionist Guide to Losing Control. Tool, so first of all, Pat, I’m totally checking out what you just described with that sounded awesome. I, I’ll just go back to, I haven’t been playing with anything that’s been blowing my mind new lately in the way that you’re just describing.

So I’ll go back to just the thing that always blows my mind, which is the absolute fabulousness of Descript, which is this, if you work in video or audio in any way or really in, in any, in anything in which you’re writing and there’s some kind of video or audio being produced, I, I make podcasts, but it’s not just for that.

Descript does just amazing things. I will tell you the thing that just changed my life, which is that you can, I can talk to somebody like, like at one point I for my podcast, I talk to you guys and then I take the audio and I drop it into Descript, two minutes later it has an AI transcription of the conversation and it’s pretty good.

And then what’s so amazing is that you can edit audio by text. So if Pat said something amazing but also stumbled a few times or went on a little tangent that wasn’t all that useful, I can just highlight that half a sentence and hit delete and it disappears from the audio. It is just the most amazing thing I used to have to edit audio by just like literally clipping inside.

Squiggly lines, and that took forever. And this is so much better. So I love the Descript. And then the metric is, for me, a this is the least scalable metric and it’s, you wouldn’t want to make this your whole life, but is dms like it when I post something or I put something out in the world what matters to me a lot is seeing how many people were compelled to reach out personally, and I have made it a point to respond to literally everybody.

I, I understand that there might be a point in which that is not possible when I reach a certain scale, but right now it is still possible. And so I respond to everybody and I do that because I know that a lot of them reach out to me and don’t expect a reply. And so when I do reply, It is a delight to them.

And I have basically locked in a fan for, for a long, long time. It is a small, small gesture. It is the easiest thing that I can do. I can respond to 10 dms while I’m waiting for my pasta to microwave. And, and I will, I will make people happy and I will grow my audience and they will stay with me. So I love to see that I am doing things that create personal responses and I track in a way how much takes with my audience some idea that works with my audience based not on the number of people who would click like on a social media post, but how many people were compelled to reach out to me directly.

Matt Gartland: That’s fantastic. I love that personal touch. For me, super fast, speaking of newsletters, and not to be confused with Lenny’s newsletter, but Harry’s newsletter, just gold when it comes to specifically copywriting, but a little more broadly, some, some marketing stuff. So when we think about communication, Jason, you’re emphasizing a lot of that there. Just a moment ago. It’s just so important. It never fails that, like even for those of us that have been kind of doing this for a while, and especially when we’re going through maybe moments of reinvention like we are with community stuff like, revisiting our skills with precision of language in communication and Harry’s newsletter. It’s actually at marketingexamples.com is brilliant. It’s short, it’s just all the things. Jason, now you’re describing in terms of like effective newsletter kinda technique. You know, they’re like two or three minutes long.

He actually even puts the amount of time like it’ll take to read at the top of the newsletter. Really cool. It’s super useful. For the tool, I will go analog and Pat will chuckle, but it’s this guy, my classic three by five note card, which I’ve been using for gosh, like my entire career. It’s such an effective way to quickly get ideas out.

If something doesn’t work well, you just literally throw the card away. You’re not like ruining notebooks. And it’s a way to constrain your thinking also cuz you have a very finite amount of real estate that kind of jot down an idea. So always love myself a good note. And then the result, I’ll just talk about the business one that’s really in focus for us right now, which is lifetime value of our members.

So, yes, other things around like revenue and MRR are really important, but you know, what we really think about in terms of measuring like the success of the communities is, is retention. You know, people keeping people there. So having the ability to measure that from, from a lifetime value standpoint really, really important.

So guys, we did it. First episode of the roundtable is in the bag. That was fun. Thanks for doing this today guys. We will, This out in the next quarter. We’ll keep this rhythm going quarter over quarter. So thanks everyone listening for the first run of show of this and stay tuned for more good stuff to come.

Jason Feifer: Thanks, this is so fun.

Pat Flynn: Thank you.

And there you go. That was the first round table, man. I thought that was incredible. Thank you so much for leading that for us.

Matt Gartland: Oh my gosh, that was great. And thank you again to, to Jason and in future one of these, you know, we hope to get Jason, you know, back around, but to be expansive, you know, it’s really gonna be fun to bring other voices into the mix.

So other hosts of podcasts that are on the Entrepreneur podcast network certainly other friends of the pod, so to speak, you know, from our show and others. It’s a really great, I opportunity here to help a lot of you kind of be exposed to new ideas and new voices and, and kind of bring a new dimension to, as we talk about entrepreneurship for you and finding success

on your own terms.

Pat Flynn: Perfect. Thanks so much, Matt. Thank you, Jason. And head over to SmartPassiveIncome.com/session670 for the show notes and if you wanna get links to a lot of Jason stuff, and Entrepreneur of course, and and a big thank you to Entrepreneur as well for having us in their network. We look forward to doing many things together in the future, and we hope you got a lot of value outta this.

Matt Gartland: And if you want to check out more of the Entrepreneur Podcast Network can also head over to Entrepreneur.com/listen. You will see the SPI show there as well. But yeah, if you’re interested in Problem Solvers Jason’s show and to discover some of the other ones, check that out. Thank you.

Pat Flynn: Thank you so much for listening to the Smart Passive Income podcast at SmartPassiveIncome.com. I’m your host, Pat Flynn. Sound editing by Duncan Brown. Our senior producer is David Grabowski, and our executive producer is Matt Gartland. The Smart Passive Income Podcast is a production of SPI Media, and a proud member of the Entrepreneur Podcast Network. Catch you next week!