SPI 845: It’s Time to Start Your Podcast with Jenna Kutcher

SPI 845: It’s Time to Start Your Podcast with Jenna Kutcher

Jenna Kutcher: I think that something really big happened for me when I switched from money being my currency to time being my currency. When I hit this place where I was like, I will trade money to get back my time, to get back my life. And when I actually did that I learned new strategies that took my business to seven figures. In that time I had so much more free time. I started taking online courses. I learned about growing an email list. I learned about digital marketing. I learned about online courses and my business ended up exploding.

Pat Flynn: I would care to guess that you have once had this thought before. Now whether you’ve acted on this thought or not is a question a lot of people I know have. Many people have had the thought but never took action on it. So what is this thought? The thought is, you have considered, at one point, starting your own podcast.

And, many of you, I know, have a podcast, but some of you have wanted to start one, or maybe have gotten in your own way to go in starting one. Well, today’s guest started one, and it is a huge podcast. It’s called the Gold Digger Podcast, hosted by Jenna Kutcher. And you’ll hear early on how this show, the very show that you’re listening to right now, was a show that was in her earbuds as she was getting started.

Now she came from the corporate world and changed her life after a five year plan was presented to her from her boss. And I’m going to tell you, this is an incredible, inspiring story, but also we get pretty deep in the world of podcasting, how to podcast, the fact that it’s not too late and why, and how to approach it in a way that’s going to help you and your business and change your life.

So that you can not have to work yourself to the ground doing it. But as she says, so that you can run while you rest. And I love that idea, that thought. When it comes to passive income by creating evergreen content that can do the work for you after you create it. And we’re going to talk more about that today with Jenna Kutcher.

And she has a book as well. And she is just an incredibly generous woman. And I know you’re going to enjoy this conversation. I had the pleasure of meeting Jenna in person for the first time, not too long ago in Tennessee with a number of other authors and she’s awesome. So enjoy the show. Here she is. Jenna Kutcher.

Announcer: You’re listening to the Smart Passive Income Podcast, a proud member of the Entrepreneur Podcast Network, a show that’s all about working hard now, so you can sit back and reap the benefits later. And now your host, he finally crossed 1 million subscribers on his Pokemon YouTube channel, Deep Pocket Monster. Pat Flynn.

Pat Flynn: Jenna, welcome to the SPI podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Jenna Kutcher: Oh my gosh. So I have a quick disclaimer before we dive in, but you are like the OG voice in my brain and I have listened to your show long before I had my own podcast. And so it’s so fun talking to you in real life because I feel like you’ve been in my earbuds longer than anybody.

Pat Flynn: That’s insane.

And you know, there’s people who can say the same thing about you now because of your podcast Gold Digger. And, you know, we just keep this wave going. And I know there’s people in your audience who are starting their own podcast too. And we’ll get into podcasts and all those good things, but I want to go back to your origin story and talk about a $300 camera that you purchased.

What is the deal with this camera and how did this camera change your life?

Jenna Kutcher: Yeah. So I worked in corporate America, graduated college. I had had an internship, got a job right out of college, felt so blessed and lucky. And I’m raised in the Midwest in Minnesota. Both of my parents had the same job for, you know, Oh, that’s right.

30 years. And so it was kind of this mentality of like, if you are lucky to get a salary and benefits and God, a 401k, like you would be crazy to ever walk away. And I entered the corporate world and I have always just been this like high achiever. I am naturally a people pleaser. I just want to do well.

And so I was on this fast track of moving up and up and up. And I will never forget the day that my boss sat me down and she said, Hey, congratulations. Here’s your five year plan. And basically handed me this five year plan. And never once had anyone ever asked me, you know, what do you want for your life?

Where do you see yourself in five years? And the company was so proud of like, here’s how you’re going to move up. And I had this very visceral response of both gratitude, but also this, like, Whoa, someone else is literally planning my life for me. And I remember going back to my office and there was this picture in this red frame of this cute boy who I was planning my wedding to.

And I had this moment of like, do I want to spend my life in this office, looking at this picture of him or is there a way to figure out how to do life where like we can do it together? And I had never had any entrepreneurs in my life. Neither of my parents are entrepreneurs, no examples of what entrepreneurship looked like.

But I was in this place of like dreaming, like I need an escape raft out of this ladder climb. Like this is not for me. And at the time I was planning my wedding to this cute boy in the picture. And we didn’t really have money. So I was paying off student loans. We were fresh out of school. And so I had bought this camera because I wanted to document all of these different wedding things from the showers to the parties to all these different DIY projects I was doing.

And I bought this camera on Craigslist and I was reminded that I was a creative person again. I think that the monotony of this nine to five type job and being on the clock all the time, working these long hours had kind of sucked the creativity out of me. And I found myself like going to bed with this camera on my nightstand and waking up with it and like figuring out like, how do I shoot when it’s dark?

Oh, when it’s light out, like, what does this look like? And I started posting photos on Facebook and I said, you know, I got a camera. I want it. Let me take your picture. Just let me take your picture. And very slowly people started to say, you know, I have a cat. Can you photograph my cat? And I’m like, sure.

And it was like, I’m getting married. I had a baby, all these different things. And I was like, maybe this could be a real thing. Long story short, I ended up starting a wedding photography business and I grew it while I was still working my corporate job. Within one year, I had booked 25 weddings, having never taken an art class.

And that became my escape route out of the corporate world and into entrepreneurship.

Pat Flynn: Amazing. When you’re handed a five year plan from your boss, I think a lot of people would be stoked on that, right? Especially with job security and things like climbing the ladder. It’s like here, your boss sees something in you to stay with this company.

What made you have that visceral reaction to that and kind of go the opposite direction? What was it really?

Jenna Kutcher: You know, I think that. Where I was, so I was in a retail setting. I worked for Target. I love shopping at Target. Didn’t love working

Pat Flynn: there.

Minnesota. Target, right?

Jenna Kutcher: Yes. Minnesota. I mean, Target is like the mecca and I had always wanted to work in the corporate setting.

I saw myself as like a buyer or like in the clothing department, not actually putting clothes on the racks in the stores, which is what I was doing as a manager. And I realized like, wait, they don’t actually see me moving out of this retail setting. They didn’t see me moving to corporate and moving to Minnesota and being with my family again and all of these different visions that I had for myself, even within the company.

And it was just this direct route of making more money, but working more. And what was interesting is that. Ross was amazing, it was a woman and she had two young kids and I saw the hour she put in and I will never forget her saying to me, I looked at this cute picture of her kids and I said, tell me about your children.

And she said, if I’m lucky, I get to spend an hour with them before they go to bed at night. And I thought I didn’t even want kids at the time, but to me, it was like, that’s not what I want for a life. Like, that’s not what I envision of like spending one hour of time with my loved ones a day. And so I think it was just, This reality of like, yeah, I can move up and I can make more, but I’m going to work more.

And what is that cost?

Pat Flynn: Yeah, that future casting is really key. It almost was a blessing to get that and realize, okay, here’s one option I could take. I could go down this route and spend one hour with my future kids that are, or I can go this way and you discover this world of photography. At what point during that wedding photography business did you feel comfortable leaving the corporate world?

Was that a certain dollar amount or was it a feeling? How did you make that jump?

Jenna Kutcher: So I burned the candle on both ends and worked the full time corporate job and behind the scenes was building the business. And when I had booked enough jobs to match my salary, that was when I put in my two weeks notice.

And I just told myself. Okay. I basically have one whole year planned out. If I can just give myself a year to figure this out, I know I can do it. And I ended up scaling way beyond what I had been earning at the corporate setting. But it was more of just this question of like, what’s the worst that could happen?

I have experience. I’m leaving on good terms. I have a resume. Like I’m not. If I have to turn around with my tail between my legs and say, Hey, I tried to run a business and it didn’t really work. And now I’m back. I knew that I would be welcomed back. And so it was interesting because I think a lot of people like fear is telling them this story of like, it is too scary.

And what I literally did is I wrote down my greatest fears and then I made action plans of like, if this happens, here’s what I’m going to do. If this happens, here’s what I’m going to do. And all of a sudden I was like, okay, these scenarios are really not all that bad.

Pat Flynn: What’s an example of one of those fears, if you remember?

Jenna Kutcher: Yeah, I mean, it was that my business would fail and that my parents would be like, I told you so, like you should have held on to security while you had it. And so it was like, if that happens, I am hireable. Like, I know I can go out and get another job in this setting. So I wasn’t very scared. It really wasn’t as intimidating as my brain was making it out to be.

Pat Flynn: Yeah, we often self sabotage what could potentially happen. And so going into the wedding photography business, I mean, fast forward for today, you’re not doing wedding photography. Where was that jump between wedding photography and entrepreneurship? How did that happen?

Jenna Kutcher: I shot 25 weddings the first year, 27 weddings the second year.

30 weddings a third year. And keep in mind, I am in a Northern climate, which means that all of our weddings are happening between April and October, which means that pretty much booked or double booked every single weekend of the summer. And for many years, my husband and I said, we’re not going to have kids.

We’re not kid people. We love just the two of us. But something really changed in our hearts. And when that happened, I had to literally plan pregnancies around my wedding schedule, right? So my whole livelihood was based in six month increments and I got pregnant. And unfortunately we lost that pregnancy.

And so I had to wait. An entire year to try again. And we got pregnant again and I lost that pregnancy. And all of a sudden I realized not only am I planning my entire life around this business that was supposed to give me freedom, but feels anything, but, but I’m also required to show up in order to get paid.

And after our second loss, I was just in a really deep. Place of grief. And yet I was showing up shooting weddings on people’s happiest day of their lives while I felt like I was dying on the inside. And in that moment, I vowed like I will figure out a way to create a business that can run while I rest.

And it was just a really sobering reality because I think a lot of times entrepreneurs start businesses to get freedom and a lot of times their businesses can take over their lives, right? I mean, they say like entrepreneurs are the only crazy people to leave a nine to five to work 24 seven for themselves.

And that was really the reality. And I knew that there were different ways to run businesses that were more passive. I mean, Pat, you have literally been in my ear for over a decade. And so. When I was in that wedding season, I was like, you know what? I was happier when I made $50,000 a year just shooting smaller weddings.

What if I could go back to that? And then what if I could do even less than that? And I think that’s something really big happened for me when I switched from money being my currency to time being my currency. When I hit this place where I was like, I will trade money to get back my time, to get back my life.

And when I actually did that through cutting my workload in half, being willing to make half the money, I learned new strategies that took my business to seven figures. And so we often joke because I went from earning six figures, being willing to go back to 50 K just so that I could have a few weekends with my family in the summer.

And in that time I had so much more free time. I started taking online courses. I learned about growing an email list. I learned about digital marketing. I learned about online courses and my business ended up exploding. And so what a lot of people don’t realize is I have never just quickly shut off something that is working in my business.

I was still shooting weddings. Five years ago, I just slowly started going less and less and less and defining what is my enough point? Like, what do I need to make in order to make ends meet? But I will not book a job over that because time is my currency. Time is my life. And the minute that I did that, everything expanded in crazy way.

Pat Flynn: That’s huge. What would you say? Imagine you’re coaching somebody who is starting their business and they just want to hustle. They want to get there and put all that work into it to try to build something. And you can see you and I can see that they are going down a path like you did to overscale, overgrow.

What would Jenna say to coach that person to at least bring them back to earth and help them realize what the real goal is here.

Jenna Kutcher: I mean, here’s the thing. I feel like, especially for female entrepreneurs, there are two camps right now. It’s like the hustle, the work up, work more, get up early, wake up before the kids work all day, do it all.

And then there’s like the manifestos, right? Like just imagine, and it will happen. And I really believe that like hustling is dream off the ground. But if hustle is the only way that the dream is sustained, then I would argue that that is not the dream. And for somebody that is starting out, I think you have to be willing to put in the time and the work and do it in a really methodical way that fits into your current life.

But you have to be able to see ahead and ask yourself, can I make money without having to show up is the only way I’m getting paid by me physically being somewhere or doing something, if it is not scalable, it is not sustainable for many people. When I look back, I was so attracted to hitting these elusive goals, like hitting six figures.

And I’ll never forget Pat the day that I hit six figures, I felt more empty and burnt out than any other day in my life. And so it’s like, What is success for you? And not what does success look like for you? Or what does success look like to others? But what does it actually feel like for you? And that is a question that I have had to come back to time and time again, especially being around amazing achievers.

I mean, you and I are in rooms with people where more is more. And it doesn’t resonate with me. It doesn’t resonate with me. A lot of times I’ll leave those rooms and I’m like, I might have the smallest business, but I have the most joy. And so for me, success is like joy and peace and ease. And so creating a business that allows for ease has been really the pinnacle of creating the freedom that I had always craved, but it took me a while to get there.

Pat Flynn: That’s so good. We’re going to have to clip that for everybody on social because that’s a very important thing to understand. And sometimes we only can understand that after having gone through the tough stuff and having gone through the mess, but hopefully people can listen in and get ahead on that.

I want to shift the conversation to your podcast because it’s uber successful. The Gold Digger podcast. I remember when I first heard. Even just the name of it. I was like, that is such a good name for a podcast. And I started listening. I was like, wow, this person, Jenna has just this charisma and this way of speaking to me when I’m listening.

And I know I’m not necessarily the target entrepreneur there. It’s mostly for females, but I was resonating with everything you were saying. I think you and I have similar stories. And also agree that podcasting is just such a powerful platform to share those stories. Tell me about the beginning and early days of your show and what was going through your mind when you first hit record.

Jenna Kutcher: Oh, the early days are embarrassing, but I love to relive them because I just want to hug that version of me. What’s interesting, Pat, is, you know, you were around Amy Porterfield was around, there were some amazing podcasters. And so it was interesting because at one point I felt late to the game and at the other side of the coin, there weren’t a lot of women in business that were successful as podcasters.

And my podcast was born strictly as an experiment. I love experimentation. I think it is something that so many entrepreneurs are missing the boat on just trying different things. And so I was. still a wedding photographer, which meant that I was shooting for six months of the year. And then I had kind of an off season.

So I said in my off season, I want to have conversations with other people. I was straight up lonely. I felt like entrepreneurship was isolation. And like I wanted to have conversations with other people who are chasing their dreams, who are messing up, who are learning new things. I started my podcast.

And what’s funny is, is that my brother, who is also a fan of your show, had given me a microphone and I don’t even know why he had it, but he had this fancy microphone and he was like, I feel like you should start a podcast. I remember telling him, I’m going to run out of things to say on episode three.

And now I’m. 100 episodes in and I haven’t shut up. So he knew something, but I was so afraid of the tech. I didn’t even know how to plug the fancy mic in, let alone figure out how to record through it. And so I sat in the front seat of my parked car in my cold garage in the Midwest, and I hit record and I had iPhone headphones because that’s.

All I knew how to use. And I just started talking and it’s interesting. And I love that that was kind of the birthplace of the Gold Digger podcast, because for many, many years I recorded the show either in my car or in our spare closet that had boxes with random stuff in it. And it was just this way to connect with other people and then ultimately just share, share what I was learning, share what I was experiencing, share what I was experimenting on, share what I had messed up on.

And it has just been such an honest look into my life and business, but it has also afforded me the opportunity to connect with people that I have dreamt of connecting with, right? Like, isn’t it amazing, Pat, that like, we get to sit down and pick the brains that of people that we admire people that we would never have the opportunity to do that because we have a platform and we’re willing to allow them the space to share their story.

So it has just been such a labor of love. I think podcasting is a lot easier than people think, but it’s There’s a lot more to it than it appears. And so it’s this interesting juxtaposition of it’s not that hard, but there’s also a lot to know about it. And I just, I love it. Like I, I love it. And I love that my life is documented in such a way that like my children’s children’s children can go back and listen to the stories that I’ve shared on it.

Pat Flynn: That’s so cool. Tell me about a guest that comes to mind that you’ve had on the show and. You know, that way we can link to it. And, you know, you say you get to connect with all these amazing people. I agree. It’s, it’s, it’s incredible. I wouldn’t have afforded the chance to get a chance to speak to Tim Ferriss or Gary Vaynerchuk, or, you know, even our mutual friend, Amy Porterfield.

She and I really built our friendship on each other’s podcasts in a way. But who’s a guest that. Was on your show that you can remember that conversation.

Jenna Kutcher: Matthew McConaughey. That was wild. I remember my dad called me while I was on the line with Matthew McConaughey and I missed the call. And then I called my dad back and I was like, Hey, sorry.

I was just chatting with Matthew McConaughey. And he’s like, what? Things like Barbara Corcoran. I love shark tank. So like talking to her. Amazing. Our friend, lovey Ajayi Jones, fabulous interview. She’s just an amazing person. Tiffany Alicia. Like. Just people that are doing amazing things. And like, they get to share their expertise with you and your audience.

Like, it’s just crazy to me. And I think it’s awesome because you don’t have to be an expert in everything and you get the opportunity to allow other people to share their expertise. It’s like a masterclass in every single episode. So like I leave feeling inspired and then knowing that like, this is going to hit the airwaves.

It’s just the best feeling in the world.

Pat Flynn: Matthew McConaughey, that’s amazing. What’s your prep work like for a show? Like imagine Matthew and you have them booked on the calendar and he’s coming up on the schedule. What are you doing to prepare for that mentally? And you know, are you doing some research or how are you approaching your episodes?

Jenna Kutcher: So like for his, I listened to his audio book. So I did the audible of Green Lights, which was fantastic by the way, if anyone hasn’t listened to it. Um, A lot of times I know my guests and so like I am choosing people who I have met or I know or I followed their work intimately. And so a lot of my guests, I feel comfortable, like I feel like we already know each other.

We already have a rapport for people like Matthew or Barbara. Like I’m listening to their podcasts, I’m listening to other interviews, but one thing I always want to challenge myself and I think that this is an interesting piece of podcasting is that I always want the interview to feel different and special.

You know, I had a book come out and I did a podcast tour and it was so easy for people to ask the same questions over and over again. And so one thing that I do with every guest before I start the interview is what is something that no one has been asking you about that you’ve been thinking about or that you have been dying to share?

And I feel like that I was set up the conversation in a really unique way, where a lot of times there’s so much happening behind the scenes or something that’s keeping somebody up at two in the morning that they haven’t really been able to talk about, or they maybe haven’t created content about. And so I feel like that gives you the pulse of like where that person is now, maybe not where they’ve been or what they’ve been talking about.

And I just love asking that question because it really opens someone up. In maybe a more vulnerable state or just gives them the opportunity if like something is really passionate and everyone’s asking them about something else, they aren’t really given that chance. And so I love to kind of platform in that way and try to meet my guests where they’re at and with something that they’re excited about.

Pat Flynn: I love that. In fact, that word right there excited is is where I often start. I ask a person what’s exciting in your life today. And like you said, that way we can get kind of what’s in their mind right now. It’s the same question I ask kids when I meet them versus like, what do you want to be when you grow up?

I always ask like, what’s exciting to you right now? And I just love the answers that come from that. So everybody should definitely borrow that when you start a podcast.

I know there’s a lot of listeners who are curious about starting a podcast, have contemplated it, perhaps have even bought that microphone, but have yet to record that first episode. And maybe a part of the worry is it is too late. I mean, you thought that I know I was early on it, but I also coach a lot of people like you do on podcasting.

And I mean, I want to hear your thoughts on that question. If a person comes to you and says, Jenna, it’s too late. There’s, there’s way too many podcasts. It’s oversaturated. The market that I’m in has enough amazing speakers and all these charismatic hosts that I can’t compete with. How would you respond to that?

Jenna Kutcher: Oh, gosh, it’s never too late. It was interesting. I was actually just researching podcasting in general the other day because someone had said, I’m like, have you noticed that like all of your favorite celebrities or reality TV stars or like movie stars are all starting podcasts, right? So like they’re jumping in right now too. And it is because it is such a beautiful direct line to the people that you’re trying to speak with. And what I think is super interesting is that so many people see people like you and I who are able to now speak to the masses, but they forget that when we first started, we were not speaking to the masses.

We simply started. And a lot of times people will message me and they’ll say like, you know, if I had your amount of followers on Instagram, these are the things I would talk about. And I’m like, Start talking about those things now. That’s how you grow your following. Same thing with a podcast. And what I think is beautiful about podcasting is unlike a lot of the social media platforms that where we’re battling all these different algorithms, podcasting really kind of acts almost like a search engine.

And if you’re really good with keywords and using words that your ideal audience is searching for. They can find you. I do not think that it is too late to start a podcast. I think now is actually the perfect time to begin. And I also just think that now you get to learn from other people like Pat and myself who have done all the things, who have made all the mistakes, who have showed up consistently and know what it takes to do that so that you can fast track your success.

I think starting a podcast can be one of the easiest moves you make into growth, whether it supports your business or it becomes your business.

Pat Flynn: Agreed 100%. I’m curious your thoughts, Jenna, on video podcast. This is, it’s not new, but it is catching a wave right now. And a lot of these celebrities that you are speaking of who are starting a podcast are on video sitting down in this, like a beautiful studio and, you know, Lewis Howes has his show School of Greatness and, uh, you know, a number of other people are getting on the video podcasting train, which is essentially a YouTube version of the podcast.

What are your thoughts on that? Because I know. On one hand, it’s like, okay, YouTube is where the growth could happen. Podcasting, it’s a little bit harder to get that search volume and sort of the algorithm wave that you could get on YouTube. But at the same time, like video is a whole nother beast. What are your thoughts on somebody who’s curious about the world of video podcasting on top of their audio show?

Jenna Kutcher: So here’s what I would say. And I was audio only for 650 episodes. The reason why I started a podcast was because I didn’t want to have to look a certain way. And for me being a photographer, I am a highly visual person. I like things to look a certain way. I want to make sure I have makeup on. I look, you know, I tried to do the whole YouTube thing for a while.

And I just, it took me out of my groove. It took me away from why I started my podcast in the first place. And what’s interesting to me is I think that the video thing can work. If you are in person, I don’t want to leave Duluth, Minnesota. I started a podcast so I can connect with people all over the world.

And so for me, audio first is the way that I’ve always looked at my show. Video is 1000 percent secondary. And what I am telling people, if they are starting out. Is shoot the video with whatever you’ve got. If it is your FaceTime camera, if it is a webcam, whatever it is, have the video start with the audio first.

If you ever want to use that video in the future, go for it, but get really consistent at showing up with your voice. First video can come after. And what I found that’s interesting to me personally is that with YouTube, it almost felt like I was cannibalizing my people that were already listening to the show, and this is a generalization, but it is one that I believe is that most women looking at my own user habits, I listen to podcasts while I am cooking dinner while I’m getting ready while I’m washing the dishes while I’m packing lunches. I am not watching something. And so for me, I feel like most of my people are listening and multitasking. And so saying, okay, come off of this platform that you’re already on to come watch.

People just sitting in an office talking back and forth. It just didn’t make sense for me personally. I can totally see that people can be successful with it, but it added too many elements that took me away from the authenticity that I craved and the whole reason why I started my podcast. So, for me, it’s audio first.

What do you think about that, Pat?

Pat Flynn: I’m also in the audio first camp. I do feel like, and I’m loving YouTube right now for like my Pokemon stuff. So I see the potential there.

Jenna Kutcher: Yes.

Pat Flynn: However an educational channel that is a podcast based program is not as entertaining as like Opening cards. So it’s harder to get that attention.

It’s harder to hold that attention. However, if you can do that, I mean, you’re in the money, but like you said, it’s a whole nother beast and it can take you away from the effort of, you know, finding your voice. If you’re just starting out, I think a lot of people want to experience that growth. Before they even know what they’re growing.

And so like you, I do recommend starting the audio portion first, finding your voice, getting those systems in place, getting used to being on the camera, be getting better at communication, telling stories, connecting with people, building relationships. And then you can take that and sort of turn it into a video version or add on top of it something else later in order for a remote video podcast to work.

I’ve only seen it work on a few channels like Ramit Setti, who does a really good job, and even then he’s recording separate intros that hook people in and you know, there’s like the Diary of the CEO podcast, right? The first minute of it is like a Netflix trailer. And so you kind of have to understand the YouTube behavior, the consumption behavior to make it work.

And it is a whole different beast. And, you know, we teach YouTube here at SPI as well, and it’s its own course. So to combine that with the podcast course, it’s like twice as much work. I agree with you audio first, and then you could add that on on top of it if you want. Now, for those who are doing a podcast, whether it’s video or, of course, audio, what do your strategies for building relationships.

A person’s just starting out. They don’t have those relationships yet. Have huge download numbers to then attract people to come on their show. How would you advise that they begin those relationship building processes to connect and bring people on a show or even appear on other people’s show?

Jenna Kutcher: Our friend Russell Brunson, he has the dream 100 idea, which I love where he literally sits down and maps out a hundred dream guests that he would have on his show, on his stages, whatever that is. And I remember doing that exercise at the very beginning. And one of the things that I did was I made sure that I would follow, like, are you following all the people that you’re dreaming about? I would set up alerts for when those people would post.

And I would make sure that I was encouraging in the comments, following along and really paying attention to what are they passionate about? What are they sharing? And then I would maybe slide into their DMS and just say like, Hey, I loved this poster. I love your take on this, or I really am appreciating your content about X, Y, or Z.

And that can oftentimes open the door. And what I think is interesting is that a lot of times guests don’t necessarily care about how big your show or your audiences, they care that they are getting a platform where they get to be the hero for the story, right? And if you are a great interviewer, you are giving somebody the opportunity to share their story, their passions, their expertise, and really give them this stage.

And so what’s really interesting to me is that a lot of times people will pitch and If they notice something in me that is unique or they see something that, you know, maybe other people have been missing. I’m like, Oh wow, you’re really paying attention. And so I think it’s really interesting in that light of like, it doesn’t necessarily have to be a huge platform.

If you are giving somebody the opportunity to share their story, that’s amazing. The other thing is, is that you are giving them content where they’re bragging, but they’re being asked to brag that they can share with their audience, right? It’s a lot. easier to share somebody interviewing you talking about yourself versus you just talking about yourself, right?

And so you are really giving somebody a gift by having a podcast and dedicating an episode to them. And so you have to approach it not from this way of a big ask, but like, here’s what I can offer you. Like I am offering you an hour of your time to share what you love and what’s changed your life. And you can share this content with your audience and this can be your little brag book compliments of me.

And so I think that can be really huge and it’s not as intimidating. The other thing I will say is that if you can get just one notable guest on your show that you can leverage in your asks and you can say, I had Pat Flynn on my podcast and if people know who Pat Flynn is, oh my gosh, wow, Pat Flynn went on this podcast.

So I better say yes. And so there is a lot of leverage there that can also happen. So if you have an in, or if you can just get one recognizable name on your show, you know, I also think that that can give you a lot of leverage where other people will be more apt to say yes once they see that name.

Pat Flynn: Now, when your show grows bigger like yours, I imagine that you are getting a lot of people who are asking to be on your show, who you don’t even know yet.

How many of those inquiries come in and what’s your filter for who to pay attention to, who to say yes to? I get so many, I like Jenna, I get like hundreds like a week and it’s ridiculous. And, you know, 80 percent of them are just like Hi host of Smart Passive Income. Yeah. You know, it’s like, uh, you’re out, but I’m curious your filter for, so you get hundreds and it’s important to not just say yes to all those, because especially some of them will want to pay you.

Like there’s a lot of opportunities that come in. How are you able to manage those inquiries and keep the values that you have and that you want on the show? still there when all these new opportunities are coming your way?

Jenna Kutcher: Yes. Okay. So I am a person. So one thing to note, I have one team member that works with me on the Gold Digger podcast.

That’s it. Like we do not have a full production team. I do not have multiple producer. It is me and one other girl running the whole thing. And so I don’t have this like massive team. And so inquiries are really interesting. And so she does the first pass through them. So they automatically go through her We have a board in our project management software.

We, we use Monday.com and so any that look interesting, she will drop onto a board and then I will go through and look at the name, what their topic was, and I’ll click over and maybe either look at their website or their social media. One thing that’s been. Important to us. And we’ve been doing this, I believe, since 2018 is that 40 percent of our guests are women of color.

And I think that’s really important to just invite in diverse voices, diverse backgrounds, diverse topics. We are always really looking at like, how can we bring in other voices for our audience to hear? To be the representation of our diverse audience. And so that’s something that we’re always paying attention to.

The other thing is, is that I want people that are so familiar with our show that they can see gaps in our content. So one of my favorite pitches is like, if somebody is like. Jenna, I have listened to hundreds of episodes of your show. I’ve noticed that you’ve never talked about X, Y, or Z. Here is why I’m the expert on this topic.

I would love to have this conversation. When people can point out a gap for me, I actually really appreciate it because it’s like, Oh wow, I’ve never even thought to talk about that topic or I’ve never found somebody that could lead a discussion on that topic. That’s interesting to me. So it’s not even about how many followers you have or what, how much money you’ve made, but like, what is a topic that we haven’t covered yet or that we have a hot take on or something different, or maybe an unpopular opinion, or maybe I’ve changed my mind on what I think about it.

How can we have those types of conversations? And so I think that that’s really interesting. And one thing I’ve noticed is a lot of times our well known guests don’t actually perform the best. It’s a lot of times the micro influencers that perform really well for our audience. One, they’re way more relatable, right?

Like we love Matthew McConaughey, but we’re not going to become Matthew McConaughey. And so maybe, you know, my friend Camille, who runs an Etsy shop, who figured out a way to automate her orders. Is going to be a more interesting conversation for our listener. It’s also interesting to note that people that have smaller platforms, this is a huge opportunity for them.

So you better believe they’re going to email their list. If they have one, they’re going to post 10 times about it on social. They’re going to comment back to anyone who comments on their post about their episode. Like they are in it, they’re paying attention. And so I just think that when people come with an interesting pitch, I don’t necessarily care who you are, how many followers you have, I want to know, what are we going to talk about and why is this valuable for our audience?

And so that’s kind of the filter that I put everything through for my show.

Pat Flynn: I love that. And amazing advice for any of you who are looking to become guests on not just any of our shows, but any show that’s out there. You want to come at it from a value first perspective. What can you offer that audience?

And learning about that show is really key. And I agree with you. When people. When it’s obvious that they have listened to the show and they can see those gaps and they come in with a story that can fill in those gaps, it’s, it’s almost like, it’s not guaranteed, but I mean, you’re actually going to get me to think about it at least, which is a lot more than I can say about most of the inquiries come in.

I want to ask you about your. I guess we can call it a funnel, but from the podcast, so people listen to your podcast. What are the call to actions or the call to action that happens to get them into your email list? And I think maybe just that conversion is what I’m most curious about from podcast to email list.

What are you doing to capture those emails? Because most people, like you said, are listening while doing chores or traveling, walking, driving. It’s a very difficult thing to get a person to take action from listening to a show. How does Jenna do it?

Jenna Kutcher: I mean, we kind of come at it from every angle and I always argue, you know, when people say marketing is so confusing, I’m like, I feel like marketing is two main things.

One is your email list growing and serving it. And two is. Any other activity you’re doing should be to get people off of the platform you’re on and onto your email list. So whether you’re growing Instagram podcast, YouTube, Facebook, TikTok, how are you getting people off of these platforms that you do not own and cannot control onto your list?

So I feel like that is marketing simplified, in my opinion, when podcast. So we have a few different ways. So we love to look at our content as evergreen, much like you, somebody could listen to a show from a year ago and it’s still relevant and it’s still applicable and it’s still valuable. And so we’re always looking at ways that our evergreen content can live on and continue to serve.

And for us, and something that a lot of people don’t know about podcasting is that when we look at like our monthly downloads, we get a huge chunk on the new episodes, but we get the majority of our downloads on our backlog, meaning episodes that have been published before the month. And so people are often searching for specific keywords or things that they need help with, and then finding our show or a specific episode.

And so a lot of times, if it is in the channel of something that I teach on. So I teach on Pinterest, podcasting, email list, building Instagram, we will make sure that we have a call to action. Our most common call to action would be to attend a free webinar. I love webinars. I teach so much content on webinars.

I just think webinars are the way that I grew in scale, my business learning from them, and then also buying online courses from the people that I really got value from. And so we integrate those oftentimes into the content. When we go into live launches, we do dynamic ads, meaning there is an ad spot inserted into every single episode.

So whether you’re listening to episode one or episode 808, you are going to hear a quick 60 second clip about what is coming up because it is new. It is live. It is timely and you want to sign up for it. And so using that dynamic ad strategy is really awesome during live launches because it’ll capture people right then and there.

One of the things that I often say, Pat is like, pause this right now and go to, and then whatever the URL is to give people that directive of like, I know you think you’re going to come back to this. The chances are that you’re not. So hit pause right now. Go save your seat and then come back to this show.

We also really look at like covert mentions and overt mentions. So thinking through like some episodes, I can just passively talk about my Pinterest course and talk about maybe the success of a student without actually selling the course, right? Just. Mentioning, Hey, I have this course. And one of my students, Abigail, you know, got a million views on Pinterest by using this strategy.

And that provokes curiosity. Right. And then there’s more overt marketing where it’s like, Hey, here are five students who took this course and here’s the results are getting, let’s talk to them and talk about what they’re doing. And so looking through ways at like. On all of my solo shows, like what is a way to have some sort of invitation?

That would be the logical next step for someone who is ready to take action on this topic, making sure we invite it, making sure it’s in the show notes. It’s in the show description, the hyperlinks are right there. It’s really easy to get to. And then we also leverage our blog as our show notes. There is so much searchability.

There is search engine optimization. We make sure the links are in there as well. So even if somebody doesn’t listen to the podcast, we are almost getting double the amount of content by creating show notes that read as a blog post, that link to the audio, and then also have all the links to the places specifically to opt in.

And when people can click over to our blog, we have other ways to capture that traffic, like pop ups. We have screamer bars on our website and different ways to do that as well.

Pat Flynn: Amazing. I love the idea of show notes, not just being like bullet points, but actually being read as a blog post. I imagine that helps for search engine optimization.

Anybody who sort of organically finds those posts on your website and the website is where Jenna?

Jenna Kutcher: JennaKutcher.com is our main home on the web. And then JennaKutcherBlog.com is our blog. I love blogging. I mean, I literally got started as a blogger and so blogging is still just like something I enjoy, but it is amazing because I think a lot of times people forget that like your podcast can turn into social content, email content, blog content. You think you’re just creating for one thing, but if you’re doing it right, it can show up in all of the places. And then golddiggerpodcast.com is for our show.

Pat Flynn: And you also have a book. How are you really? Can you give me a 30 second synopsis of that read for anybody who’s curious?

Jenna Kutcher: Yes. Oh my gosh. I love my book. The book was written during COVID and it is written for people more specifically women to just get honest about what type of life you want to live. So if the beginning of this conversation resonated of what is success for me and how do I want my life to feel? This is the book to ask the bigger questions so that you can give the answers that really help you get to a life where you can answer the question.

How are you really honestly and with conviction that you are amazing.

Pat Flynn: So good. And I imagine that’s linked to on JennaKutcher.com, but on Amazon as well. Yes. Cool. Jenna, thank you so much for your time today. I know you’re a busy mom and busy entrepreneur, but thank you so much for the time and the wisdom.

I learned a number of things. I’m going to start to implement some of those call to actions on the podcast very soon. So thank you for that. And honestly, if there’s anything I could do for you, Jenna, let me know.

Jenna Kutcher: This was such a treat. And I mean, it’s a very full circle moment. I feel like I’m on a famous podcasters podcast.

So thank you for having me and thank you to your listeners. I’d love to hear what your favorite takeaway was.

Pat Flynn: Awesome. Where can we share that perhaps on what’s your preferred social platform?

Jenna Kutcher: I am the only person that logs into my Instagram. I do not have a team that does anything. So if you shoot me a DM saying you listened to this episode, I will be the one to see it and respond.

And I would just love to hear from you.

Pat Flynn: Amazing. And congrats on hitting 1 million followers there on Instagram recently. I saw that happen. That’s amazing. Jenna, this was a pleasure. Thank you so much.

Jenna Kutcher: You are the best.

Pat Flynn: All right. I hope you enjoy that interview and conversation with Jenna. Jenna is so amazing and her knowledge about podcasting goes far and wide and it’s so cool that, you know, I hope that you can understand that in some worlds, she and I would be competitors because we both serve people through teaching entrepreneurship, especially podcasts. A lot of her content is about teaching podcasts, yet we’re great friends. We support each other. In fact, after this call was over, she was like, Pat, I know you have a book coming out.

I’m going to give you all the resources I have that helped my book become a bestseller. Cause I want you to become a bestseller too. And I was like, Oh my gosh, Jenna is absolutely amazing. She did that off the air, but I wanted to present that here to you just to show you what kind of person she is.

She’s great. And I do recommend you check out her book, her podcast, the Gold Digger podcast, and also her website, JennaKutcher.com Thank you, Jenna. And thank you for listening all the way through to I appreciate you and we’re here to help you work so that you can live, not live so that you can work.

Cheers. Take care and I’ll see you in the next episode. Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Smart Passive Income podcast at SmartPassiveIncome.com. I’m your host, Pat Flynn. Sound editing by Duncan Brown. The Smart Passive Income Podcast is a production of SPI Media and a proud member of the Entrepreneur Podcast Network. Catch you next week!