SPI 424: The Antidote to Dry Marketing and Sales, with Ann Handley

SPI 424: The Antidote to Dry Marketing and Sales, with Ann Handley

Pat Flynn:
You could potentially have the best product, the best solution, the best emails, the best copywriting, the best team in the world. It doesn’t matter, if your sales and marketing messages are dry. You are not going to do and perform very well. Dry marketing has dry results. We want to have sales that are on fire. Although that being said, fire would dry things out, so maybe let’s not use fire. Let’s use wet marketing. That sounds dirty to you. Okay, let’s not even talk about that anymore, but we’re going to keep this because this is real life. Anyway. We want marketing that rocks, right? We want the sales messaging to really hit home with our audiences, and when I think about different people who are really great at this, I mean we had a great conversation last week with Prerna and different components of our sales pages that we often don’t even think about, but today I wanted to talk about our just overall marketing messages and how to bring some personality to your brand.

Pat:
Now, I’m not saying personality in the sense that you have to be bubbly all the time. Hey, come get my marketing. And that’s the coolest thing in the world. That can often come across fake. And if that’s you, that’s fine, that’s you. But doing that because you see other people do that and they try to pretend like they are an infomercial or something, that’s not going to work. We need to be our authentic selves. But how do we best portray our authentic selves? Well, we’re going to talk about that today with somebody who embodies authentic personality and is able to help several companies from small single owner businesses to multi-million dollar large corporations, Ann Handley. Yes, Ann Handley, you might’ve heard of her before. You can find her at AnnHandley. That’s hand like five fingers hand, H-A-N-D-L-E-Y and also MarketingProfs, which is another website that helps a number of people with their marketing messaging too, and that’s what we’re going to talk about today with Ann. So make sure you stick around. Cue the intro.

Announcer:
Welcome to the Smart Passive Income podcast where it’s all about working hard now so you can sit back and reap the benefits later. And now your host, he was known in middle school for using the most hair gel, Pat Flynn.

Pat:
What is up everybody? Pat Flynn here and welcome to session 424 of the Smart Passive Income podcast. My name is Pat Flynn. Here to help you make more money, save more time and help more people, too. And today we have in our corner Ann Handley to help us hone in on our marketing messaging so that we’re just not as dry, so we can connect with the audience on the other end, and how not just we can connect with them but convert them into raving fans at the same time. So here she is, Ann Handley from AnnHandley.com. Hey Ann, welcome to the SPI podcast. Thanks for much for being here today.

Ann Handley:
I am just so happy to have you on my ears right now.

Pat:
Well, I’m happy to have you here, and I had the pleasure of meeting you in person very recently at Social Media Marketing World before all this crazy stuff in the world started happening and it’s insane, but I’m glad we got to meet and hang out and then you agreed to come on the show. And I’m excited because you have this amazing super power of helping brands have some personality and get out of the sort of mediocre marketing messages that they often share and helping them really step into that customer journey. Before we get into that, I would just love to get a little bit of background behind like why are you so in love with what you do?

Ann:
At the beginning of that sentence, why you’re so in love with, I was like, yes, where’s this going?

Pat:
With me. No, I’m just kidding.

Ann:
With me. Why are we so amazing? Let me say, why am I so in love with what I do? You know, I love language, I love communication. I love to help people tap into their ability to market themselves differently, to not sound like any other brand out there especially a competitor. There’s something about that magic that when I see a piece of marketing, it could be an email, it could be a video, I can be listening to a podcast. Like it doesn’t matter what the asset is per se, but when I see it and I feel it and I feel that this is genuine and this is real and this feels like it’s connected to something that’s more fundamental to us as people, I get super excited. And that sounds so geeky and it maybe sounds a little bit funny to some of your listeners, but I just love it. And why do I love that? It’s just because I love pure and honest communication that is connected to something bigger than one person or one individual that feels like it’s part of a movement. And that’s the kind of marketing that I love.

Pat:
And why are we so bad at it? I mean, I think it’s great that a lot of people have their own businesses now and even big five like Fortune 500 companies, we’re all bad at this. Why? Why did we just have this tendency of just creating mediocre marketing? Is it because it’s hard?

Ann:
Yeah, I think yes, because it’s hard. Sometimes it’s because we are… There’s a certain fear, I think, to being the kind of marketer who feels honest and true and authentic, and so it’s easier to not stand out. It’s easier to just sound like everybody else because you don’t open yourself up in any way. You don’t make yourself vulnerable. And I think that’s true whether you work at a massive company and you are in a marketing department of thirty, you don’t want to necessarily suggest something that’s going to make you look stupid or worse, get you fired. And I also think it’s true of individuals. I also think that we have this notion in, I was going to say business, but actually it’s kind of in life too that marketing and I’m using air quotes now. You can’t see this because it’s a podcast, but that “marketing has to sound a certain way” and that we almost try on a marketing voice or we put on the cloak of marketing before we start speaking or communicating with another human being when we think about representing something that we sell or something that we do.

Ann:
And so I think the more that we can shed that cloak, the more we can step out of that, the more we can step into the light and really be seen, then I think that’s where that magic happens. That’s where those moments that I truly love happen. So all that to say, I think it’s a combination of fear of not wanting to stand out and really allowing ourselves to see that as a differentiator. That it’s much more powerful to be imperfect than it is to be perfect. I think imperfect is a fancy way of saying or a less fancy way I should say, of saying authentic. Right?

Pat:
True. I love that. And so I’m curious, when you start working with brands, and I mean you are highly seeked out to help change marketing messages within companies and you’re a co-founder or a partner at Marketing Profs and you’re a bestselling author and people hire you to help change things and help make things better and help them stand out. What’s the first thing you look at, and how do you help a company make change? Especially when I would imagine that they’ve just been so used to the way that things have been and this is likely going to be a big change for them.

Ann:
Yeah, I mean a lot of it comes down to really understanding your customers at a fundamental level and then understanding how you fit into the context of their lives. Very often marketers start with the opposite approach, right? They start with their product and then they think about who can we sell this to? And I think the biggest thing is to shift your mind from that into who are we talking to here? Who are we actually trying to sell to? Who are we actually trying to connect with? Who is our audience and how are we building that audience? How are we engaging them and nurturing them over time. And so I think when you start there, with your audience, as opposed to with your product, it results in a very different kind of marketing. It results in a much richer and a much more engaging message for the audience as well.

Pat:
So what is your process for learning more about the customer?

Ann:
It comes down to like this is… It’s stupid simple. Like I think there’s a tendency in marketing to over complicate it, right? Does that mean I have to go out and I have to hire a big firm to do this whole like market research study? I mean sure, but also no you don’t. You just need to really think about it from your customer’s point of view. Find out who are you actually talking to? Pick up the phone and talk to them. In marketing very often, we don’t talk to customers. We’re relying on input from customer service, from in a bigger company or from your sales team for example. Those are the two parts of the company that tend to touch customers the most. But I’m a big fan of talking directly to customers. When do you are able go to a coffee shop again in a post-COVID world, taking your customer out for a coffee.

Ann:
But for now, engaging them on a Zoom call just like, “Hey, can I ask you a few questions? Can I really get to understand you and get to know you and understand your motivations and your fears and your wants and desires and what drives you?” Start there. Just get to know who you’re speaking to. I call that kind of developing pathological empathy for your customer. So it’s not just about understanding who they are from a high level kind of demographic, psychographic standpoint, but instead actually attaching a real person to who you’re speaking to. And again, not from a persona standpoint, but really understanding an actual person. In your head, think about the actual person that you are trying to reach a person you know, a person who has a name, a person who you believe with all your heart that your solution or your product actually will help. It will improve their lives. Start there because what your goal is ultimately is to build trust with that person and also to build affinity with that person. And what do I mean by that? I mean like, do they like you? I think that matters a whole lot in business and it matters way more than many marketers think that it does. I think the likability factor is actually really massive.

Pat:
I do want to touch on likability for sure. And that’s something that, I mean you, Ann, you’re so likable and this is like seriously, like from every moment of your brand on your website and just the way you show up on stage. It’s just you just you embrace that and it’s all about you. So I’d love to definitely dig into that. I do want to speak to the beginners in the audience. We do have quite a few who are listening right now who are hearing you say, “Okay, go out and talk to people,” and now they’re shelling up. They’re wondering, well, maybe this isn’t right for me because they’re feeling a little nervous. Maybe the listener can imagine having a conversation and then having that go, “well, why are you even trying to talk to me” and how would you help a beginner position? And I agree. I think that’s the best thing to do because, wow, what a fast forwarding in your marketing efforts to just go directly to who it is you’re ultimately going to serve. But how would you speak to the beginner who’s never done business before? Who doesn’t have an audience? Who doesn’t even know where to start?

Ann:
Yeah. I think the most powerful thing that you can do in that scenario is so in other words, if you really don’t know who you’re marketing to, is that, is that kind of what you’re asking?

Pat:
Yeah. Or perhaps you have, for example, a pretty general niche idea that you have an interest in something and you’d like to help those kinds of people, but you really have no idea even what to ask or what to say, or even where to go and reach them.

Ann:
I mean, in my mind, I think you really need to start with smaller, right? So really think about… You can’t start from a place of generality, right? I think you’ve got to really think about one particular thing that you do particularly well and who is the person that could most benefit from that? Social media is a great way to connect with like-minded people. There’s so many ways that you can connect online through groups on Facebook, through LinkedIn, through Twitter, start connecting with where those audiences live on those social platforms. And before you start asking questions and before you start trying to develop that that sort of empathetic muscle, just spend a lot of time listening, spend a lot of time listening and watching and seeing what engages people and what they’re talking about.

Ann:
And I think that automatically will start to help you hone what it is that you sell because you’ll start to think, “Oh, I really think that I could help this person with this because this is what I’m particularly good at.” So I think the more you can really spend some time in that community before you start selling or before you start talking to your potential customers with the idea that down the road that you’re going to launch a product or before you start marketing, in other words, just spend some time really immersing yourself in those spaces first. And that’s the beauty of social media, right? That’s the beauty of really allowing yourself to connect on social with those communities.

Pat:
I love that. I often say the riches are in the niches. I completely agree with you and it’s going to be easier to find those people. It’s going to be easier to speak their language or at least hear that language. And it’s like, yeah, you won’t build something like the next Uber doing it, but you’ll help people and you can expand out from there. And truly for the beginners out there listening, when you help one person get one result, it just kind of unlocks everything for you.

Ann:
Yeah, that’s so true.

Pat:
So I completely agree with you, Ann, on that, and I’d love to talk… Oh, go ahead.

Ann:
When you just said the riches in the niches, I was thinking to myself, I know that that’s kind of one of your… That’s like a Pat Flynn phrase. And I was like, “man, I wish I’d said that first.”

Pat:
Even though it’s niches, but I still, it doesn’t rhyme as well when I say reaches in the niches.

Ann:
Yeah, I know. It’s like, one of the… So my background is as a journalist and one of the first headlines that I ever wrote that I remain like a profoundly proud of to this day is “you can never get too big for your niches” instead of your britches.

Pat:
Oh, that’s good. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ann:
Yeah. It’s really… It’s not that good, Pat, but thank you for your generosity there. But man, I tell you…

Pat:
I am a dad. Dad jokes, which most people don’t think are good, are great in my eyes. So it actually, I thought it was good. I thought it was good.

Ann:
Well, thank you. I appreciate it.

Pat:
You’re welcome. So one thing that you do bring to a lot of your messaging is humor. And you’re known for just bringing some lightness to things that are often quite heavy. And this speaks into the realm of likability, like we said. And I think likability is so important and it’s often sort of, we often think it’s kind of a vain thing to want to be liked. But it’s so like you said, really important because we have this formula, we have to have people know us, like us, and trust us. And we spend so much time in the knowing us, getting our word out there, SEO, social media, et cetera. And then the trust part is often talked about quite often from authority through association or social proof or the journals that you’ve been listed in or what have you. But the like part, I think people avoid. How do you get people to like you?

Ann:
That’s such a deep fundamental question, isn’t it? I don’t think you can make people like you, but what I think you can do is show people who you are and communicate in a voice that is simply you. I think one of the things that we tend to shortchange in marketing is our tone of voice. And I talk about this a lot and sometimes that notion of tone of voice, especially to people who are first starting out or small business owners, it feels a little high minded. It’s like, what is she talking about? Isn’t that like a literary thing? Well, no it’s not. Your tone of voice is essentially your true voice. Like, how do you actually sound to your customers? So you mentioned a second ago for example, like the language that you use and the way that people are describing the products or the services or the world that your business lives in.

Ann:
So yeah, part of it is using those words to connect with your audience, but it’s also about communicating in a way that is truly authentically you and so one of the ways to think about that is who are you as a brand and then are you expressing that to the people that you’re trying to communicate with? So just to make it a little bit more specific. So if you are like a financial services person, right? Then you want to convey trust of course, and you want to convey likeability, but you don’t want to be necessarily like a buddy buddy kind of likeability, right? You want to be more like you can trust me, I know what I’m talking about. There’s a way that you want to convey who you are that also will appeal to people who need to trust you with their money, right? With something that’s very important to them.

Ann:
So you need to think about your brand. And again, I’m kind of using air quotes here, which you need to think about your own point of view and how are you communicating as a way to build that trust, but also in a way that’s going to further that the more human and real and ultimately likable aspects of you. The other thing about likability is that you’re not going to be likable to everybody and that’s kind of the point, right? You want to use that as almost a filter to attract the likeminded, the people who will really connect with you as well as repel the timid, right? Keep those people away from you who are not going to be a great fit for your business. So, for example, if you are attracting a younger audience, like a Gen Z say, and you are really looking to connect with those people, the way that you communicate, the language that you use is going to be very different than if you’re selling to boomers. Right?

Ann:
So just thinking about your voice in those terms, not only how it reflects who you are and what you sell, but whether it’s actually going to land with the audience that you’re trying to attract. And what is their mindset when they’re hearing from you. And this, again, depends on who you are and what you sell and what the audience is,, but are you addressing their fears in a way that feels like they get me, like they understand me. Like you understand that the problems that your customers have and do they see themselves reflected in your marketing messaging and your communications and how you’re communicating.

Pat:
Oh, that’s great. Yeah. That very similarly reminds me of Donald Miller Story Brand, making your customers the hero and other people who come in later see a version of themselves in that and of course, like you said, the language that you use because if you can’t speak their language, you could have the best solutions in the world, they’re not going to know that you have those.

Ann:
Yeah. And one of the tests I always use, and this kind of goes back to your first question, like how do you actually work with brands to help them through this process, through this journey—is that one of the tests that I always use is, and this is a good test, for example, if somebody feels a little bit squirrelly about actually feeling like they’re conveying their true selves through the copy on their website or through their social channels or anything. But so here’s the exercise: Look at your website, look at your social channels, cover up the logo on all of those things, right? Cover up the logo on your website, cover up the logo on your social channels and ask yourself… This is a good thing to do with clients, by the way, especially.

Ann:
Ask yourself, do I sound any different? Would I know who I am… Basically is your logo the thing that is the signal that that says that this is you, this is your brand, this is your company? Or can you also, do you sound different? Are you also conveying that through your words? And it’s a really powerful thing to do if you are feeling or if you’re wondering, do I actually sound different online. What is my voice? And so if you can try that exercise and cover up the logo and see if you sound different than anybody else out there or potentially a competitor. Are you communicating in a way that truly reflects who you are and that is conveying both trust and that especially that affinity? Give it a shot. See how it feels to you and how it comes across.

Pat:
How relevant are the brand missions and sort of vision statements around that? I mean that is essentially what you’re talking about, right? In terms of language of purpose and language of connection. It’s it’s the mission statement, right? Are you a big mission statement for brands type person that they should be displayed prominently on the website and that’s kind of what you’re known for? Because that’s like what you are known for outside of the logo.

Ann:
Yes, exactly. I think sometimes that part of the reason why I talk about things the way that I do is because I want them to feel accessible to people. And my concern with talking about things like mission statements or talking about even personas as relates to customers is that we use these words to obfuscate what we’re actually doing. So how do we actually embrace the power that we have to just communicate in simple human terms. And so, yes I am talking about mission statements. I’m talking about personas when I talk about pathological empathy and really understanding who you’re talking to, but at the same time, I want to make it feel more real and accessible, especially to small business owners, to solo-preneurs, to individuals who are just… I want them to embrace their power as a company, as a communicator. And so that’s the only reason why I don’t love talking about like from a mission standpoint because yeah, it’s important. But I also think that it tends to complicate things a little bit. You know what I mean?

Pat:
Yeah, no, I agree with that. It’s one of those, you go to business school and it’s like, okay, we need a business plan. We need a mission statement. And it’s just like oh sometimes…

Ann:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right. And the reality is that I don’t think it has to be that complicated. Like, I think if we really are clear on who we’re talking to, if we are super clear on who we are as a brand and as a company and our value and what we deliver to that audience, then we’re good. Right? And if we’re conveying that in a way that’s human and simple and accessible and is building trust and affinity with those we’re trying to reach, then that’s what it is essentially—If you strip away all the buzzwords and if you strip away all of it, it’s like that at its essence is that the heart of a really good business.

Pat:
Love it. Thank you Ann. As we’re closing up here, I’d love to talk about your methods, your just sort of psychology around how you help people who are already customers of yours and how you can continue those conversations and continue to serve them even after if we’ve reached that, here’s my air quotes, “end point” of having a become customer and it speaks directly to what I talk about in my book Superfans. And I love that you sort of hone in on that message for brands that you work with too. What are some Ann Handley ways of helping customers feel special? I’d love to know from you.

Ann:
Oh that’s good. Yeah. I think the way that customers feel special is when they feel seen, essentially. Is when they feel acknowledged. I mean that’s kind of the number one thing. So one of the various specific ways that I do that is, and this is going to sound so stupid simple, and I’m only sharing it with you because I think that any brand, any person, any business owner, any want-to-be or would be business owner can adopt this very same approach. So for example, I’m a massive believer in the power of the email newsletter, right? It’s like I have an email newsletter that I publish every other week. Marketing Profs has an email newsletter that we publish three times a week. And I’m a real believer in the ability of that particular email newsletter, which is not unlike a podcast by the way.

Ann:
But because I’m a writer, first I tend to gravitate toward writing. And so I love the power of the email newsletter because to me it feels just as, when it’s done right, it feels incredibly powerful and it’s a great opportunity to build that relationship and nurture that relationship with a would-be audience. So I published my email newsletter from AnnHandley.com every other Sunday, right? And when people sign up to be on my list, I ask them two questions. Number one, I thank them. I’m like, “Hey, congratulations. This is a moment to celebrate. You’re here. Why are you here?” I ask them, number one. The second thing I ask, “What do you hope to learn?” I ask them to just simply respond to that email. It goes into my inbox. And then that allows me to help, first get to know my audience at a more intimate level, to really understand why they are coming to me, and what value I can provide them.

Ann:
Number one. But number two, it helps me see individuals, right? The way that they write, the way that they’re communicating. There’s a lot of things that I can pick up about who I’m communicating with, language that they use and so on. But this is the part that I think anybody can do. When I get an email from them that says, “Hey, here’s who I am. Here’s what I would love to know from you or hear from you or read about in your newsletter,” that I always respond. And I say thank you and I do this… It takes me maybe ninety seconds to respond to each email. I say thank you. And I usually share something that they share that connected with me. It starts a conversation, right? That extends that email newsletter, which can feel very one-way as a recipient, it feels like a brand is just emailing you and that you don’t necessarily feel that you have the ability or the permission to write back or that anybody is going to care or see it.

Ann:
And so immediately I’m setting up an example that or a model for this is not going to be like any other experience that you have with an email newsletter. So I’m sharing that with you because I think it’s an example of we think that we need to come up with these great surprise and delight moments for fans, right? For building fans or for delighting our customers. And sometimes I think it can be very, very simple. Just thinking about that one person that you’re trying to connect with and letting them know, “thank you for being here. I see you. How can I help you?” And when they answer you that you write them back and you say thank you. And now I’m telling you this story through the lens of an email newsletter, but it doesn’t have to be just an email newsletter. It could be a response on social media. It could be somebody leaving a comment on a podcast review and you responding back and saying thank you. It could be any of those things. But I think fundamentally that’s where it’s an easy thing to do. So many brands, so many companies don’t do it.

Pat:
Really quick for you in particular, how are you managing those conversations and not overwhelming yourself with so many responses and just time management?

Ann:
I just set aside half an hour a day to respond to those individuals. It’s that important to me.

Pat:
It’s intentional.

Ann:
Bottom line. Yeah. And so I make it a priority because if someone… Like again, to me, the power of the email newsletter is enormous. Somebody has raised their hand and said, “I want to be on your list. I want to hear from you.” And that’s a choice that an individual made. It’s not as if Facebook is allowing them to see my message, right? This email newsletter is not controlled by an algorithm. It’s the only place that is not controlled by an algorithm aside from a podcast or a video series or another thing that you own and publish, right. That you are building your own audience. So I think that is a really unique opportunity. And so that is an area that I do want to be as a marketer.

Ann:
And it’s also an area where I will set aside thirty minutes a day to respond to those people who are writing to me. Now, if I were massive, if I were, I don’t know like Tina Fey massive, and I had an email newsletter and I had a 100,000 people writing to me every month, I mean that may be different. I would have to put a process in place, but I believe in the approach, and I would find a solution, a way to fix that or a way to meet that need. Because I think you, it’s important to me to invest in those areas that I think pay off down the road and that’s an area that absolutely does, for me personally.

Pat:
That’s awesome. And, I know you have to leave. I have one single question that’ll serve double duty. Number one, where can people go to find you and your newsletter? And the second part is, I was going to ask you, well how are you selling people into your newsletter? How are you getting people? So why don’t you tell us why we should join your newsletter?

Ann:
Oh, I ask people who are already on my list to refer it to their friends. So I ask my fans to create more fans for me essentially. That’s a much more powerful way of thinking of amplifying or building an audience than me hammering away on social media, sign up for my email newsletter, sign up for my email newsletter because no one wants to see that. Which is not to say that I don’t share what I’m doing in that newsletter or in anything that I’m creating either on behalf of me or on Marketing Profs on social media. Of course I do. And the key there is to share not the fact that I have an email newsletter, but to share the value that’s inherent in that newsletter.

Pat:
Because nobody wants more emails.

Ann:
No, nobody is clamoring for more emails, but they are clamoring for solid information from a voice that they can trust and that they like. So it’s the… What did you say the know me and then I said the trust me and the like me.

Pat:
Right, right.

Ann:
And so, yeah, I think that’s the key-

Pat:
Love it. Well played.

Ann:
Where they can get ahold of me. They can find out more from me at AnnHandley.com. If you want to sign up for the email newsletter, it’s AnnHandley.com/newsletter. You can also find me at Marketing Profs. We run a training and education company and that’s at MarketingProfs.comPat:
Ann Handley, I appreciate you so much. Thank you so much for your time today and hope to run into you again soon.

Ann:
Yeah, thanks so much Pat. This was fun.

Pat:
All right. I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Ann. Isn’t she great? I just love her so much, and I cannot wait when we can all get back into conference mode again and we can run into each other because she’s definitely one of those good people out there who’s there to serve others, has a great, great message, and is able to help make it seem easy and it’s not easy, but it’s simple. She simplifies it and that’s why I love it and that’s why I love you because simple enough, you’re here, you’re listening all the way through and I appreciate you for that. Hey, to check out Ann’s stuff, check out Annhandley.com. You can also check out Marketing Profs and all the great things she has going on there. So, Ann, thank you so much for coming on the show. I appreciate you. Hope we can have you back on again in the future and for you, the listener, thank you so much.

Pat:
I hope you crush that run or maybe you’re in your car. Maybe we’re still all by the time… You know, I’m recording this in early April. Maybe by now we’re out of the house, maybe not. But either way, hopefully you’re crushing that laundry that you’re doing, whatever it is you’re doing right now. I just appreciate you so much, and I’m so thankful and grateful for you for being here. Make sure you subscribe because we got a lot of great content coming your way and yeah, nothing else to say except just stay safe and I cannot wait to continue to help you out. Let me know what you thought of this episode at Pat Flynn on Instagram or the Twitter and I appreciate you. Cheers. Thanks. And as always, #TeamFlynnforthewin. Peace.

Announcer:
Thanks for listening to the Smart Passive Income Podcast at www.smartpassiveincome.com.