SPI 437: Life After Being a High-Performance CEO with Jon Oringer

SPI 437: Life After Being a High-Performance CEO with Jon Oringer

Pat Flynn:
All right, so we have a billionaire on the podcast today, which is pretty amazing. He’s going to unveil a number of different things that’s going through his mind since stepping down from CEO of his company and just being on the executive board so we still has a little bit to do with the company, however, he’s focused on his next stuff. We talk about life after CEO, life as a father and having to balance all of this stuff, and how the story even began, which is pretty amazing. How he bootstrapped and put this thing together himself. His name is Jon Oringer founder of Shutterstock.com. And again, former CEO; he has since stepped down to allow somebody else to take the day-to-day efforts in the business forward and it’s a great story. So very casual conversation you’re about to hear, hope you enjoy it.

Announcer:
Welcome to the Smart Passive Income Podcast, where it’s all about working hard now. So you can sit back and reap the benefits later. Now your host, he learned how to swim by literally being thrown in the deep end, Pat Flynn.

Pat:
What’s up everybody. Pat Flynn here and welcome to session 437 of the SPA podcast. My name is Pat Flynn here to help you make more money, save more time, and help more people too. What you’re about to listen to, it’s a conversation with a former CEO of a company who’s been with it for over a decade and somebody who is moving on, if you will, from that. It’s really good to download this information now so that we can understand sort of what we could look forward to, how to avoid a lot of the mistakes that this person’s going to share that he made, and just a lot of the nuances of what it’s like to run a company like this, and I hope you enjoy. There’s a lot of insights and golden nuggets in this episode for you so hope you enjoy. Hey Jon, welcome to the Smart Passive Income Podcast, thanks so much for being here today.

Jon Oringer:
Thanks for having me.

Pat:
So Jon, as founder of Shutterstock and executive chairman, I’d just love to know a little bit more about your story about how you got there and then now you’re even beyond that and just kind of I want to unpack your story. So bring us back to early on and your days as sort of beginning that and your journey of entrepreneurship.

Jon:
Yeah, so this kind of goes all the way back to 2003 when I started Shutterstock. I started Shutterstock out of my own need. I had a bunch of other companies as well, some software companies, a couple of SAS based companies, I was just trying to start things. They all needed images. These images were hard to find and I just started thinking that I would love to have a resource that was a subscription resource where I can get whatever images I need on a fixed monthly price, to kind of like jump in and out whenever I want, take what I need, use those images to market my products, and not have to worry about where are those images, whether I’m authorized to use them. This is the internet I should have all the rights. I should be able to use them around the world. It turns out that was really hard to find back in 2003. So I decided to just create the resource myself.

Jon:
I went out and I took the pictures, I took 30,000 pictures, put them on a platform and then invited buyers to come in and at the time it was 20 bucks a month take whatever they needed.

Pat:
So you actually took the pictures yourself?

Jon:
It started by taking them, yeah.

Pat:
Dude, that’s pretty cool. That’s like bootstrapping to the max right there.

Jon:
I mean, I did whatever it took. I didn’t have either side of the marketplace. I had the chicken and egg problem and so I needed to create the content that I was going to go out and sell in order to prove that the business model work. I knew it would work, because I wanted it myself and so I created what I wanted and tried to find other people to use those images and in marketing.

Pat:
Were you first to market with a solution like that?

Jon:
Well, at the time there were some big companies that were the incumbents, they’re still around today. There was one small company called photos.com. It eventually got acquired by one of my competitors, but it wasn’t a marketplace: it was a fixed hundred thousand images. But what I wanted to create was a two sided marketplace where contributors can come in, contribute whatever they want, we would sell those images. The best images would make the most money, and buyers can come in whenever they wanted take whatever they needed and it was kind of this symbiotic relationship between the two sides of the marketplace, kind of communicating to each other what was needed, what was being used, and kind of if there was enough data for both sides of the marketplace to kind of come away with, once I would be producing the content that the other side needed and once I would be downloading the images that the other side was producing.

Pat:
That’s cool. So you had this built essentially for yourself and your other companies. When did it start to really get out there and you started to see a lot of other companies start to sort of play a role in its growth.

Jon:
It was 2005. In 2004 I opened up the site to the Contributor Community, it wasn’t just my images anymore, but 2005 is where things started to really change because the flywheel is starting to really accelerate, it gained a lot of momentum because the data that was passing back and forth between two sides of the marketplace was actually working. I was taking that money that I was making from that flywheel working and pouring it back into the product. Product was getting stronger, the two sides of the marketplace were both getting what they needed and they were growing as well. So it became this kind of unstoppable force at that point, where if I can keep feeding all three, the product, the contributors, and the buyers, it would just keep growing. Today we sell seven images a second, we’ve paid out a billion dollars to our contributors, but back then I was starting to see that momentum get created and just pouring the fuel on the fire is what we needed to do.

Pat:
That’s really amazing by the way, the seven images per second which is kind of ridiculous, it almost sounds like a YouTube… Like, hours of content every second being uploaded and whatnot. But I know it doesn’t start there. Were there any big hurdles upfront when and before it started to take? Were there moments when you were just like, “What am I doing?” Or like, “This isn’t going anywhere.” Can you tell us any stories about your feelings during those moments?

Jon:
Yeah. I mean the real, real beginning. I had to shoot content that people want… I was not a photographer, I need to figure out how to create these things. I was kind of a one-man show all around, I did the customer service, I created the photos, I was programming the website, and it was difficult to figure it out. I mean, I had to call customers and learn about why they were downloading certain things, why they weren’t downloading others. Getting that kind of flywheel moving—that was the hardest part, that’s the hardest part of any marketplace. I mean, today I’m looking to start some other marketplaces in my new role and I think back to that those few years. I mean, you have to take every single piece of data, analyze it very closely, and make the pivots and changes you need to make in order to get the product to the next level.

Pat:
What’s the first thing that you handed off to somebody else to help you grow that company after you had done everything yourself?

Jon:
I think it was the customer support on both sides of the marketplace. So the contributor relations and the customer support, those were the two pieces of the puzzle that I had to hand off early on. That’s what allowed me to continue to build the product. My skill set is in… I’m a tech guy. I mean, I went to school, computer science, I was a programmer when I was a kid. So growing up doing that, I kind of built some of the product pieces along the way and kind of learn the marketing pieces as well. So by handing those pieces off, the kind of customer support, it allowed me to really dive into the product, those were the first hires. That was my first kind of experience in building scale at Shutterstock.

Pat:
Now I know any company that grows goes through a number of growing pains. What were some of those pains that you experienced and how did you work your way through those?

Jon:
It was people related. I think every company… I mean today, Shutterstock‘s close to a thousand employees. Getting to the tenant employee mark, getting to the 50 employee mark, getting to the 100 employee mark. These are milestones where they require different levels of infrastructure in order to support that kind of employee base. So it was each one of those that made the company stronger. Yeah, actually I just did the ultimate delegation, I gave away the CEO role.

Pat:
Yeah, I know.

Jon:
But throughout the journey, the different pieces that I delegated became really important learning process in themselves, because you had to make this thing that you handed off live on its own, and kind of teaching other people what you did yourself. But actually doing it yourself was also I found to be a pretty important part of the process as well, because I learned things I wouldn’t have learned, and today I use some of those skills, I believe.

Pat:
That’s awesome. Curious about in terms of growth like you said, 10 to 50 to a 100 to now a 1000, what were the drivers behind that growth? I know a lot of people in my audience are sometimes afraid of growth because it can just get completely out of hand or it’s not necessarily the kind of company that they want, they want to keep it small. What kept you growing? What made you determine that’s kind of the goals that you wanted to have?

Jon:
Well, I wanted the product to be experienced by as many people as possible. I started seeing the usage of the imagery of the video of the audio as a success. Every time someone downloaded something, they were getting something they needed to drive their business and someone was getting paid from that. So in continuously building that, adding new products and services to the mix was exciting, and seeing that growth—it becomes addictive. You want to keep building it and building it.

Pat:
Was it mostly a customer service personnel growth in terms of the number of people? Or… Because for something especially digital, growth can happen without necessarily hiring new people. What exactly were those hires for?

Jon:
Yeah, it could. But the hires were all across the board. I mean, we were hiring… I mean it started with product and tech, because like I said the three pieces of the kind of that triangle that you need to keep feeding the product and the then two sides of the marketplace, they all work in tandem. So if one side gets stronger, you can’t support that triangle anymore. These are really big tech challenges, right? I mean, back in 2003, 2004, I mean the type of scale we were dealing with few, companies had dealt with. We were taking so much imagery and video at the time, audio came later that it became a tech challenging itself to store this stuff, process this stuff, review all the material, and then serve it to the customer in the way that they needed it.

Pat:
Was that an S3 solution, if you don’t mind me asking? Like, I don’t even know if that was around back then.

Jon:
It was not. These were data centers. We were lacking servers.

Pat:
That’s crazy. So this is where a lot of the other talent would come in to help with that sort of situation.

Jon:
Yeah. I mean, today we’re all cloud based. Which is important because you’re so much more agile when you are. But back then, I mean the first servers I racked myself, then I would hire people to help me do it.

Pat:
That’s cool. That’s so interesting to hear that story. Now I do know there are a lot of similar solutions to Shutterstock, there’s a lot of other places where people go to get their images, and when those businesses started to really gain some exposure as well on top of yours, how did you begin to differentiate yourself? I’m curious your thoughts on competition and how to manage competition just overall as an entrepreneur.

Jon:
Yeah, there’s always been a lot of competition in this space. There still is today. The trick really is to… Like I said, make sure all sides of the marketplace are served well and also make sure that the technology can keep pace. I mean, Shutterstock‘s a technology company in its heart and always has been, and we’ve always been able to stay ahead of our competitors. I mean, there are competitors today that existed when we started. We were zero, we were in revenue in 2003 and today we’re very close to their size, and I think that’s an incredible achievement to kind of be headed towards that leadership position. Shutterstock‘s in a great place today, strong balance sheet, and really talented employees, great contributors, and a really solid product.

Pat:
Do you have relationships with those other companies? Like do you know the founders and the other… Do you guys get together and chill at conferences and then just kind of joke, or is it like kind of a cutthroat sort of situation? I’m curious.

Jon:
I mean, I know all of the competitive environment. I know the competitive environment, and the people that run those companies, but at the same time we’re competitors and competitors compete and that’s how this works. Most of the time we at Shutterstock are heads down building the business, that’s what we’ve been doing for 16 years. And today, Stan as CEO, is doing that with an amazing team every day making progress.

Pat:
That’s really cool. I want to shift into your new role and sort of where you’re going from here because you’ve built this really amazing product and tool and service and technology and now you’ve handed it off to a different CEO to manage that, and now likely you have more time to focus on other things, other interests, and tell me your thought process in handing over role of CEO and now you’re executive chairman, and sort of what’s next for you and why.

Jon:
Yeah, so it was a couple of years ago now that I started to have conversations with the board that we’re a thousand people, the company is in an amazing position, for the first time I felt like maybe I wasn’t a leader that made sense for the company’s next phase. For any founder, that’s a really important thing to realize. What I was feeling, I didn’t want to ignore it, this was something that was becoming very apparent to me. That while I was good at the zero to one game, I built this company to hundreds of employees, several product lines, the day-to-day management of the business and kind of being an operator of a business this size, it was not my skillset. But where I could offer help with the company is kind of the bigger strategic pieces of where we go next.

Jon:
So capital allocation, M and A, big product decisions and strategy. And so I had the conversation with the board and we decided that we were going to try to find the right next operator. And so we brought in a COO that we thought could do it. It turns out he could and he did. And we were lucky in that we didn’t have to do a full on CEO search as a publicly traded company. That was the last thing I wanted to do. But it’s worked out really well. Stan is doing a great job. He has a great team. I talk to him all the time, several times a week. I spend about half my time on Shutterstock. And I spent about half my time looking at other things to invest in, and also what I’m going to incubate next. I don’t feel like I’m done.

Jon:
And so I’m talking to lots of people that are interested in starting businesses. I have a list of ideas from the past 10 years of frustrations I had at Shutterstock. Just like thinking back to when I started Shutterstock—it came out of a frustration while I was starting another business. And so I think about along the lines, like all the different things at Shutterstock that I wish existed as a product, as a service, as a technology. And that’s what I’m thinking about. Trying to figure out what to do next. I’m kind of new to this, we just did the transition April first. Now we’re in June. So I’m taking the time to kind of relax a little bit, but also collect my thoughts and figure out which operators I’m going to launch with and what ideas I’m going to launch next.

Pat:
Now that you’ve been so new in this new role of yours and somebody else has essentially taken over, are there any feelings of, Oh, I should take care of that, or I wonder what’s going on today. I’m going to do this stuff. Is it hard to actually stay away?

Jon:
It’s not. Like I said, I spent half my time on Shutterstock. I probably talked to the CEO either by G chat or like a video meeting almost every single day. And there’s always something at Shutterstock I’m thinking about, I’ll let Stan know. I’m in some of the meetings. So like the weekly staff meeting I’m still in, but I’m careful about where I’m going to exert influence. Stan is the CEO. We all hired him to do that. And so I’m pretty careful, but at the same time, if something’s going on, I’ll take Stan to the side and I’ll tell him, or if something is happening in a meeting where it makes sense and I should bring it up, I will. But I’ve also made it clear that I am not the day to day operator. It makes sense. Nobody expects it. And that’s good because it gives me that chance to really take a breath and think about the business in a different way. I think I’m contributing to the business today in a more productive way than I was actually for the past couple of years as CEO.

Pat:
That’s interesting. And I want to take you back to when you first started feeling like this might be the next direction for you. Like you said, a couple of years ago, what were you feeling? What were you saying to yourself? Was it more of a, “I’m getting kind of bored,” like what were the things that were going through your head to help you understand this was the next right move for you?

Jon:
Yeah. I mean, I wasn’t losing excitement about the business or the opportunity. I mean, Shutterstock‘s in an amazing position today. Super clean balance sheet, very profitable, no debt, very strong business. The thing that started to break down for me was, I was clearly doing things on a day to day basis that I wasn’t good at, that someone else I knew could be better at. And that goes to the managing of really, really big organizations, driving big organizations, dealing with change in the environment, in the competitive environment, in the business, which is always happening. And translating that change into positive motion forward for the whole organization.

Jon:
I had lots of ideas. I knew some of the things we should do. I didn’t know all the things we should do, but translating that into the day-to-day operation of the business, I started to lose confidence in myself that 16 years later, that would be something I could continue to do. And sort of realizing that that was okay was probably one of the most important like pivot points in my entrepreneurial journey.

Pat:
Was it just you having these conversations with yourself or did you involve other people, perhaps mentors, family, etcetera in that conversation?

Jon:
I talked a lot with my wife, my board, some other people in industry, some other CEOs, some other people that I felt like I could confide in. Because again, when you’re a public company CEO, you can not… I mean, that is very material information. So being able to control how you do that process is very important. You can’t just tweet it out. You have to do it very carefully. You have to build the process with the board and figure out how you’re going to build that succession planning. Are you going to bring someone in, are you going to do a search? We were fortunate that bringing in Stan really made sense.

Pat:
Yeah. I mean, we’ve seen tweets from CEOs like Elon Musk and just the impact that those sort of just top-of-mind, things can have on the industry and the stock market and whatnot. I would imagine that there’s a lot of weight that comes with being a CEO in public at a public company. What are some of the other things behind the scenes that we don’t know about from your perspective as somebody who was in that kind of public forum?

Jon:
Yeah, I mean, I was a public CEO, for, I guess the past seven years. We went public in October 2012. So that’s a good 25 to 30 conference calls. I got used to it, but what happens is, going public and even a year up to going public, there’s a switch that flips and everything becomes much more regimented there are process pieces to follow, there’s disclosure requirements, but there’s also great things that come with being public. I mean, having that public currency is great, having news every quarter is great. You’re always on the map when you’re public—for better or for worse. And so there’s good and bad to it, but you have to adjust the way that you operate and you’re not a private company anymore. You’re not.

Pat:
Yeah. Wow. That’s really interesting. And you said you have a wife, do you have kids as well?

Jon:
Yeah. Yeah. We have a daughter.

Pat:
How has it been being the CEO, especially a public one and also being a father at the same time. And how do you balance work life as somebody who’s at such a high level?

Jon:
Yeah, it’s hard, especially since, I mean, in some way, Shutterstock was my first child. Like I created this thing and I spent more time on that in my life than anything else, really. I mean, it was 24/7 for a decade or two, actually. So it was hard, but I think also I don’t think there’s a coincidence around the same time that some of this stuff happened. I was about to have a child. So, it could be that it kind of spurred some of that change in me realizing like really what I enjoy doing really what I’m good at doing really what I want to do. And I’m pretty happy right now to be in that zero-to-one game where just ideating thinking of I can start anything. And that’s a pretty amazing feeling.

Pat:
Now that you’re in this stage, what are your filters? What are your assessment and auditing processes for new ideas? Now that you’ve done this for a company and you’ve got it successful, I would imagine that your style, your approach is a little bit different now. Of course, you now likely have some funding and it’s not going to be necessarily bootstrapped like it was before, but in terms of the idea itself and how you approach it and what makes a great idea, what makes not a great idea? What are your filters like now?

Jon:
I need to be interested in the idea. It has to be a big enough idea. The idea has to have aspects that I feel like I can leverage to build a big business out of: marketplaces, network effects. A lot of these things are buzzwords, but they’re real powerful things if you can get them going. I think about ideas that market themselves, ideas that are so powerful that you acquire a customer and that customer acquires other customers on their own. These are the kinds of things I look for in businesses I invest in and ones that I want to start. That and also just problems that haven’t been solved yet. Problems that I have. Problems that other people have, things that I’ve run into along the way that I wish existed.

Pat:
What’s your research process? Like you get an idea, perhaps it sparks the possibility of it becoming a big idea that you could focus on. What are your first steps? Do you talk to people? Do you read? What do you do?

Jon:
Yeah. I mean, I try to do as much research into whether something exists or not in that space, what the product looks like, how funded those companies are, what their product looks like, how it works, what people say about the product. I look at the addressable market around the product. I think about 10 years from now, could this be a publicly traded billion dollar company? These are the things I look at in order to understand whether it’s something I want to embark on or not. The idea has to be big enough. There has to be enough white space in the area in order to build what I’m thinking about.

Jon:
The mere existence of competition in the space does not prohibit me from creating that thing. Just that there’s enough space for me to expand into that space. When I started Shutterstock, Getty and Corbis were two really big companies in that space. Today there is no Corbis and today Getty is still there and we’re a big business and we compete very well with them. I don’t look at competition as a barrier to entry, actually.

Pat:
Yeah, I agree. I mean, it almost proves there’s a market there and you can use what they failed at or don’t do well to sort of create something even better.

Jon:
Exactly.

Pat:
For sure. What are some things you’re going to do with this new idea… First of all, where can people follow along so they could see what you’re up to and perhaps drop in your socials, personal website, where do you want people to go?

Jon:
Yeah, the best place is Twitter. My handle is Jon Oringer, twitter.com/jonoringer, and LinkedIn is a good place also where I share some of this stuff. I’m probably going to build like a website or where the incubator that I’m kind of building will live. I’ll let you guys know what that is when I put that up. But from there, I mean, look, my email is pretty easy to find on Twitter—you can contact me. If you’re an operator that wants to build something, wants to create something. If you have an idea, send it to me, I’ll look at anything.

Pat:
Cool. And that’s J-O-N O-R-I-N-G-E-R. Just so y’all know. Because a lot of you are probably going to follow right now. When you have these new ideas presented to you or you discover these new ideas, what is the first year going to look like for you compared to the first year of…like, are you going to be holding a camera again and shooting 30,000 photos? Probably not, in an analogous sense. What’s the first year going to be like for you? And try to pull in lessons that you’ve learned from your previous experiences.

Jon:
Yeah, so I’m a pretty hands-on entrepreneur. I get really into the weeds. I get into the details. Especially in the beginning, but that being said, I have no desire to ever be CEO again.

Pat:
Why is that?

Jon:
I’m happy to give that job to someone else. And so I’d love to be executive chairman of either a group of companies or many companies. I want to give the CEO experience to someone who has what I had when I was 27 when I started Shutterstock. And I think that would give me a lot of satisfaction to be able to help someone along that journey, help them break down the walls, kind of provide some guidance through that journey. I did it once. I think I can do it now as executive chairman for many ideas. And that’s kind of that incubator business model.

Pat:
What’s the relationship between an executive chairman and a CEO in terms of who is responsible for what? Just to define for those especially the brand-new entrepreneurs who are listening.

Jon:
Yeah. Well, executive chairman, that role is kind of custom tailored for each business. I’m executive chairman of Shutterstock. That role looks completely different than the executive chairman of a startup. But I can say that here’s some features of that role. Definitely not the day-to-day CEO. So if there’s a problem, the CEO is responsible to solve that problem. If something needs to be escalated above the CEO, I’m happy to help. I’m there for guidance. I’m there to talk to the board. I’m there to kind of help between the communication of the board and the management team. That’s on the Shutterstock side, on the smaller company side, I’m happy to get my hands dirty, but at the end of the day, I’m probably not going to be living, breathing and sleeping the business like the CEO is. I’m happy to fund that seed round. I’m happy to be there whenever the CEO needs me, but that CEO needs to know that they need to solve the problem.

Pat:
Thank you. So it’s almost like a visionary/advisorship role, but obviously a lot more stake at stake with the company and a lot more access probably to the stakeholders.

Jon:
Yeah.

Pat:
Cool. Thank you. To finish up here. And again, Jon, this has been an excellent conversation. Thank you. And it’s been really neat to hear your journey and sort of where you were and where you’re going and you’re right in the middle of that right now. You just started. I think it’s so interesting. What advice would you give to the new and young and even old and new CEOs who are in the audience right now, they’re starting their companies, growth is starting to happen. And how can they understand based on your experience sort of what next steps to take and sort of perhaps just best life advice even to manage everything going on during this time?

Jon:
Yeah. I think one of the most important things is from the beginning be every role. I did that when I started Shutterstock and it helped me as CEO for close to 20 years. I still think back to those first experiences. And they were really important helping me understand who I need to hire for those roles, and how I need to kind of build out the infrastructure for those roles. I would say the other thing is, know when to delegate and scale. There are times along the journey where, I held on to things for too long. There were times where I gave things up too soon, but you have to know when to delegate.

Jon:
And, I’d say my third lesson is the most recent. And that’s if you feel like there’s something going on and you should not be CEO anymore, maybe you should listen to that. Because handing over that role was one of the most important decisions I ever made. I am in a better role today. And there’s a better person now as CEO of Shutterstock because of that. And everyone, my shareholders, the employees, the marketplace are going to benefit. Me. We’ll all benefit more from that because of that. I think being honest with yourself about where you are in your journey, what you’re good at, what you want to do every day is super important.

Pat:
How do you as a busy CEO and this is the audience, right? They’re busy, they’re so focused on the day to day. I mean, you can’t read the label if you’re inside the bottle. And how does one begin to have those honest conversations with themselves? Do you make a certain kind of space for that? Do you have a particular set of advisors perhaps? What’s your favorite strategy for staying true to yourself?

Jon:
I mean, it’s a hard one, but yeah. I mean, you have to have some people that you can talk to that are in a similar role. I think that’s important. So you’ll meet them at conferences. You’ll meet them through the day-to-day, as long as there’s some people you can kind of talk to or are also CEO’s so you can say, here’s the thing I experienced. They probably experienced something similar, and kind of work through that with them. I think that’s important.

Pat:
It’s enough for some people. It almost takes like a breakdown or a burning out and literally going to the hospital because of it to have people realize and open up their eyes. And I think having other people who can sort of see that before it happens is really key. What was it for you to finish up here?

Jon:
Well, it wasn’t that dramatic. I mean, I think it was just a realization that what I was doing every day, not only was I not as good as somebody else in that role, but it was also not the type of work I wanted to be doing. I’m fine spending lots of time on Shutterstock. I think there’s benefits for me being around still, if not, they should tell me to go away [inaudible 00:32:36]. But here’s the thing, as executive chairman, I mean, I can deal with the bigger issues and help the team navigate through those issues. Whereas the day-to-day would drag me into the weeds at a level where I couldn’t do that. And today I can help the board and the management team with topics I wasn’t able to do before.

Pat:
Jon, thank you so much for being here today on the podcast, we’ll feed people over to your social channels so we can keep track of what you’re up to and what your next big projects might be coming up. And just want to thank you so much for sharing your experience with us and giving us the wisdom from those years at Shutterstock. So congrats to you. Thanks again. And we appreciate you.

Jon:
Thanks for having me.

Pat:
All right. I hope you enjoyed that interview with Jon Oringer and you can find him on social media and LinkedIn, as he said, and many other places too, if you want to get the show notes and those links, all you have to do is get to smartpassiveincome.com/session437, one more time. smartpassiveincome.com/session437. I appreciate you so much. Thank you so much for listening all the way through. And I look forward to serving you in next week’s episode, where we are chatting with… Who we chatting with? I’m looking at the… Oh yeah, you’re not going to miss out. You’re not going to want to miss this one. This is a good one with a very incredible and almost —I don’t know it’s just a story that starts off kind of crazy, but some big lessons involved for sure. So make sure you hit subscribe so you don’t miss that one. And I look forward to serving you in the next episode and all future episodes as well. Peace out. Thank you so much. And as always #TeamFlynn for the win.

Announcer:
Thanks for listening to the Smart Passive Income Podcast at www.smartpassiveincome.com.