SPI 847: The 2025 Product Launch Formula with Jeff and Dan Walker

Jeff Walker: Every niche has got lots of competition. Didn't used to be that way five years ago. So there's so much competition and now with AI and the people's ability to create passable sales copy with AI, competition has just gotten that much harder.

The thing that's working right now that feels like it will continue to work is to go deeper with fewer people, build deeper connections and be able to, you know, understand who your avatar is, who your persona is, who you're trying to reach and how you're going to change their lives. And then just going deeper and deeper with those folks.

Pat Flynn: Today, I have a legend on the podcast, but not only do I have a legend, but I have his son who works with this legend as well, and is becoming legendary in his own right in the company that he is in. I'm speaking about none other than Jeff Walker. And if you've heard that name before but maybe can't quite put a pin on exactly who that is This is the founder of the Product Launch Formula or PLF. And Jeff and his son Dan are on and it was actually a super fun episode to record because Jeff and Dan both have never done an interview together so I was able to ask some questions about what that was like and a little bit of history behind how Jeff taught Dan to be an amazing copywriter at a young age and things like that.

But if you don't know what the product launch formula is, you're going to get very familiar with this, but it is for over two decades become kind of a framework or a system by which people have had massive launches, a formula for launching a product. And we've adopted a little bit of that here at SPI, but in it's changed, it's, you know, adapted to the times it's, it's gone through several different iterations and it continues to iterate on itself through the to stay up with the times and the way consumers behave, and that's what's so fascinating.

It didn't even start out on purpose as the product launch formula. So we're going to get, in fact, into the origin story of how this came to be. And it goes way, way back. I mean, we're talking like, 1990s And Jeff spills the beans and he gives us what's working today. And I think especially for those of you who are launching products in 2025, this will be the episode that you're going to want to listen to so that you understand what's working today in launching a product building trust and authority with an audience. And a little bit of behind the scenes on how jeff and his family work together and run their business. So here he is Jeff Walker and his son Dan from Product Launch Formula.

Announcer: You're listening to the Smart Passive Income Podcast, a proud member of the Entrepreneur Podcast Network, a show that's all about working hard now, so you can sit back and reap the benefits later. And now your host, his only winning year playing fantasy football, was the year he picked on auto draft, Pat Flynn.

Pat Flynn: Jeff and Dan, both welcome to SPI. Thanks for joining me today.

Dan Walker: Thank you, Pat. Hey, great to be here.

Pat Flynn: I'm so excited to dive into the father son relationship and business together and what that's like.

I have a son who's growing up and I'm just so curious about what that's like and what the pros and maybe even some of the cons of that might be. But Jeff, I want to start with you because most people in the audience, if they've ever been in marketing for a while, they've probably heard of the term PLF for product launch formula and you are the person who created that.

You started that whole thing. Can you go back in time and tell us where the PLF product launch formula came from? And then we'll go from there.

Jeff Walker: So way back in the mid 90s, 1996, I was actually a stay at home dad, desperate to try to figure out some way to make some money. Online seemed like a cool thing, started publishing about the stock market, something I had some expertise in, eventually had this thought that someone might pay me for something.

And I put together in early 1997, what is now really the first launch of a sequence that brought people into this offer that I was going to make. And the reason I did that put together the sequence was because I was scared to ask for the order. I had no marketing or sales experience and I was uncomfortable with selling.

And. Amazingly enough, that first launch worked. I made $1,650, which was mind blowing to me. I, I was shocked that someone would actually pay me for something that I created. And then I just kept on doing that over and over. I had this thought that if I did this once, I could do it again and I could do it again.

I might get better at it. And that's what happened. And eventually those launches grew into five figures and then six figures. And then in the early 2000s, I got out to a few marketing events and realized no one else was doing this putting together these sequences, these launch sequences. And so in 2005, I had a shift in my business and I decided to start teaching marketing and that was product launch formula was teaching people how to launch their courses or their memberships or their coaching programs.

And, and I, since 2005, I've just been working on making it better and better. And it's gotten crazy. You know, that first launch, $1,650 was the most important launch I've ever done. But I've now done, I don't know, something like 20 or 21 consecutive seven figure launches. And the biggest number is, you know, my students have done over a billion dollars in sales.

It's been a crazy ride.

Pat Flynn: Absolutely insane. Why do you feel a sequence works better than just here you go, this is the sales page, which is probably how it was done when you first started. And, you know, I can imagine that the lead up to it and the relationship you're building helps, but why does it really work?

Jeff Walker: I think for most of us, if we have digital products, we're teaching, we're training, we're bringing someone else to a new vision of who they're going to become. And to do that, you first have to convince them that this change is possible, that they can learn a foreign language, or they can have a meditation practice.

So that's the first step is for them to see it's possible. But the tougher step is to get them to believe that it's possible and take on that vision of who they can become. And that's tough to do in a single piece of marketing. Oh, by the way, it's hard to get anyone to pay attention to any single piece of content, period, because it's so noisy out there.

So I think the sequence just, it's the winning formula. It has been for a long time, and I think ever more so now. If you look at, you know, Apple, how did, they don't just, one day the phone doesn't, just doesn't appear on the website. Or movies, it doesn't just one day all of a sudden there's a movie available, they build up to it with a sequence.

Pat Flynn: Your dad was doing all this stuff and like, what, what were you doing? Were you interested in this at all or what was going on in your life at that time? I know you were probably in at least 97, a young kid, but what were your interests then? And how did you first kind of start to gain that interest in what he was doing?

Dan Walker: Yeah. So, you know, that first business back in 97, yeah, I would have been pretty young. And still fairly, I mean, 2005. So I was, you know, middle of high school at that point in time. So I knew what was going on. I think for me, It was copy and copywriting, I think is probably the thing that I most got interested in.

That was always something that I found myself had a bit of a knack for in, you know, in high school and going into college was writing, you know, and sort of writing assignments, you know, English classes are always the ones that I, you know, was more looking forward to and happy to be doing. And if we had something was writing an assignment or, you know, writing something, I didn't really feel like I had to prepare a lot for it.

I could just sit down and write. And I liked that. And I just thought there was something really cool about, you know, me being. I mean, you know, fairly introverted kid in high school. I, it was just kind of cool that you could reach all these people from behind the computer screen that you could kind of compose yourself and come across the way that you really wanted to, which for me, you know, being someone who was a little more shy in that, that period of my life, at least I thought that was really cool.

I thought that was really appealing, you know, sending out an email broadcast and then seeing people respond and seeing excitement build from that, just seemed really cool.

Pat Flynn: What an amazing gift to have kind of learned about that kind of stuff at your age. That's amazing. I'm curious, how did you further learn about copy?

So you got interested in it. Was there anything you did or did you get any training or what did you do to just get better at that at a pretty young age, in fact.

Dan Walker: Yes, there's definitely some credit goes to my dad. So Jeff was, he would give me kind of extra credit assignments and you want to call it like almost like chores, you know, but pay me, you know, some, some small amount, like 50 bucks or something like that.

If I went through a full copywriting course, or if I read, you know, a legendary copywriting book, like, you know, like scientific advertising, or I remember being in college, I was probably a sophomore.. So there was some of that when I was in high school, you know, it's kind of like, Hey, you know, I'll give you 50 bucks because of this is, you know, go through this whole copy course.

I'm like, okay, yeah, that sounds cool. And then once I started to get a little bit older, I was in college. I remember kind of reaching out and saying like, Hey, I'd like to continue this. I'd like to learn a little bit more about this. And so I remember, one very distinct memory is Jeff saying, like, okay, well, this is a guy, Gary Halbert, so if you don't know Gary Halbert, the legendary direct response copywriter, and his pretty much, I think the majority of his life's work, at least the stuff that he did for himself, like he didn't write for other clients is online and I believe it, I haven't checked it for a while, but I believe it is still online. Gary Halbert letters. These are letters that he would write to his followers. And so basically what I would do is I think, I think it was every day. I think, is that, is that right? I think, I think every day I would basically read one of these Gary Halbert letters.

And then I would write Jeff just a short little email that was like, Hey, I read this letter. Yeah. And this is what he did. And this is what, what I thought about it. And sometimes they're more in depth and sometimes they weren't. But it'd be, I guess it'd be mostly pulling out the hook. You know, I'd be saying like, hey, here's, here's what he did in this.

And then just get feedback. You have to just give me feedback on that. I don't think I was getting paid for that at that point. But, but it was fun.

Pat Flynn: That's amazing. Jeff, how intentional were you about like, okay, I'm going to train my son on copywriting, or was this something that just kind of slowly built and you kept adding on?

I'd love to get your insight as a father on kind of your thought process there.

Jeff Walker: Yeah, it was super intentional. And this is actually Dan and I were just talking about this. Our stories diverge a tiny bit since this was a long time ago. This is 20 years ago now. But my version of the stories I said. Hey, Dan, if you love this process where I'll give you a book or a course and you go through it and then you create a mind map of your learnings and then we'll have basically an interview, it'll be like an audio report where we'll, we'll talk about it and then I'll give you 50 bucks.

And my thinking then was, you know, video games cost about 40 or 45 bucks. So. Dan really liked video games. So I was super intentional. We, Dan mentioned scientific advertising. That was what we started with. And that was one of the seminal pieces on copywriting, in my opinion, by Claude Hopkins. And then we went to, what was it?

The psychology, the book by Cialdini. And we went through a series of books and I was super, super intentional on that. And then I think once we got like to the Gary Halbert letter, I think that was more, Dan was just into it and we were just bouncing back and forth. But I also gave Dan an assignment, like during one of our launches and our, you know, our launches are the ones we do for ourselves are big time.

There's a lot of moving parts. And I was like, Hey, why don't you take a shot at this copy? And the copy we gave her that Dan did was specifically a copy for our joint venture partners and getting them stoked to promote for us. So I said, why don't you take a shot at this? Yeah. So I, it was just one of those, I'm like, if I can teach him this skill, he'll never want for anything.

He'll always be able to make a living.

Pat Flynn: Yeah, that's incredible. That's, I mean, I'm, I'm inspired. I, I once paid my son at the age of 11. I paid him 50 bucks for learning how to solve a Rubik's cube. It wasn't quite necessarily a skill that necessarily will, you know, take him into the rest of his life, but it was something that motivated him and got him to learn how to figure something out.

And I feel like that's an important skill too. So maybe I'll take that Rubik's cube and, you know, turn it into something more like this. And I got those Gary Halbert letters and some of the other names there. So I appreciate you both for, for talking about that. Jeff, related back to the product launch formula, PLF, at what point did you coin that term?

Because you didn't in your 97 launch go, okay, I'm going to create something called the product launch formula. You just called it a sequence. But at what point did this materialize and how did you turn it into a repeatable framework for others to learn from?

Jeff Walker: That's a great question. And there's a few different pieces to it.

So right. I didn't think of it as a launch. I didn't call it a launch. And then I think in around 2003, I started going to some marketing seminars and I was like, wow, I, I really like these people I'm meeting. I love this, you know, I've been doing this marketing, but I hadn't been part of sort of the ecosystem of online marketing.

So I got to meet a few folks and then started tell 'em about what I've been doing. And at that point, I'd just done my first six figure launch, I think was in 2000. Yeah, in 2000. So I'd just done that. I told a few people about it that I met, you know, some of the people I met at this event. I've become legendary, you know, Frank Kern, Ryan Dice, Ryan Dice was in college back then when we first met and somewhere in there, I think I started calling a launch, but then I helped John Reese was the first person to do a million dollar launch.

He did a million dollars in a single day. And this is, I think, in 03. Or so, and that, that, that idea of doing that kind of revenue was just mind boggling. It was just inconceivable, but I helped him do that. I was in the background and I showed him how to do this. And he was the one, him and Yannick Silver, these are names most people probably don't know.

Pat Flynn: Oh my gosh. Yannick Silver. Yeah.

Jeff Walker: They're from the blast from the past, but John and Yannick said, Hey, if you Create a course on this. We'd love to tell people about it. We'd love to be your partners and promote it. And I was like, okay, if you guys want to do this, then I'll create this thing. And John Reese said, and you should call it product launch formula.

And I was like, okay, John, you, you know, everything. You're the one that just did a million dollar launch. Sure. And I went and registered the domain and never looked back.

Pat Flynn: Amazing. You have a book now called Launch. That's done really well. It's gone through a couple of iterations, which is wonderful. And that.

I'm imagining has helped you get PLF in front of more mainstream audiences. And I remember when I first started an online business in 08, that was the time when Yannick Silver and Ryan Dice and Perry Belcher and all those guys were sharing stuff. I got into that quite a bit and did a lot of research.

Moonlighting on the internet was one of Yannick's books that introduced me to sales pages and copywriting there. It was just this whole underground world. It felt like, and then now you're able to share it with people like those who are listening to the podcast right now, which is great. So before we move on, I want to get to Dan and kind of what it's like to work with your dad and kind of the dynamics of that.

But Jeff, where can people go to best to learn about the Product Launch Formula today?

Jeff Walker: I think productlaunchformula.com is, we've always got tons of free resources there, and that'd be the great place to start.

Pat Flynn: Thank you for that, Jeff. Dan, so the copywriting was just sort of a thing that your dad was helping you with training and then you started doing some launches for them.

When did you really start understanding the idea behind like the PLF or the product launch formula? What age were you at? And then how did you dive even deeper into it so much so that you are both now officially working together?

Dan Walker: Yeah, it's been an interesting journey. So I would say in 2011, so in 2011, so I was in college, I was, I think I just turned 21, and I think basically what was it, we were going to be filming or Jeff was going to be filming PLF 4, PLF 4.0 back in the days when they used to have a, you know, a number in addition on that, you know, we'd be up to like PLF like 13 or something now, and I think it was the first one that was going to be like all video.

And so basically I just get a call. I'm actually, I think I'm driving home from college. I was going to school. I think I was going to school out in Nevada at the time, driving back to Colorado for like summer and get a call. I remember I was in a subway. I don't remember. Yeah. I don't remember why I remember that, but I'm in a subway just like, Hey, I want to.

Refilm. I want to film a live version of product launch formula. And I was wondering, Hey, do you want to learn how to work a video camera and learn how to set up a video studio, be my videographer for this? And I was like.

Pat Flynn: Oh, wow.

Dan Walker: Hey, sure. That sounds fun. I distinctly remember having the thought of like, yeah, it seems better than working in subway because you know, I was going to need a summer job.

And so I was like, all right, cool. So he, he signed me up for the great late Andy Jenkins video boss.

Pat Flynn: Andy Jenkins. Yes.

Dan Walker: Do you know? Yeah. Yeah. Andy Jenkins. What a guy. Signed me up for his course video boss and was like, go through this course. And we rented a house kind of, you know, in a quiet area. And it's like, Hey, we're going to turn the garage into like a video studio.

So order all this gear. And so I was like, cool. And to be honest, I didn't take it like super seriously. Cause I was like 21 and calm. When I was like 10. fun with my friends. And I was kind of like being a little lackadaisical. I remember he's like, Hey, when are we going to get started? And I'm like, I don't, I don't actually know that.

He basically fired me basically like, all right, you're not taking it serious. So like, no, you're not. I was like, okay, like time to grow up. So I come back the next day. I was like, Hey. All right, give me another shot. Give me another try. I'll do, I'll do good. So it's like, okay, all right. And I did. Went through the course, learned how to film videos, set up.

I remember I grabbed a couple of my best friends and said, Hey, I'll give you 50 bucks. Like, let's, you know, help me set up this video studio. Cause this is a lot of gear. So we went, we set up studio, we filmed course, I learned how to edit, made a whole lot of mistakes. And I found myself getting really interested in videography and photography.

I found that really interesting. And so I actually started working in the business from that point of view. I was the videographer. I was taking what I had learned with copywriting and was helping working with the video script and was kind of how to learning how to tell a story. And then the thing was, though, back then it wasn't like we were putting out YouTube videos all the time.

It wasn't really such a thing back then, you know, you'd film like really high production stuff. And then the rest of the year, there wasn't that much to do. So I had these new skills. So I started freelancing and I built a business as I'm doing video production and doing video production In this kind of world, video production for entrepreneurs, creating launch videos, flying around, creating case study videos, creating story driven videos on like book launch videos, like kind of real high production videos where it was, you know, I'd always say it was, it's easy because I'll charge more, I'll charge on the high end of the market.

And then people will be happy to pay for it. So I'll make them more money than they spend. That's how I describe it to my friends. And I built a career doing that. And I really feel that that really helped me nail my marketing and copywriting skills down in just a very, very strong way. And so then coming into, so I was doing that basically up until 2020, 2020, a whole lot of video shoots all got canceled.

I transitioned a little bit. I had my own video coaching course, teaching entrepreneurs how to do this. And then at some point when I was kind of ramping up and starting to take more, going to be starting to take more clients, it was right about the time that Jeff, the whole team was kind of getting restructured a little bit.

And actually the current COO reached out and was like, Hey, do you want to move into more of a full time role here. Cause at the time I was still just kind of contract part time moving to a full time role here as a marketing lead. And be doing that for us. That conversation Jeff about it and said, yeah, that sounds great.

Pat Flynn: That's cool.

Dan Walker: Yeah. Came, came back and been full time there since I think about 2020.

Pat Flynn: Jeff, what was the conversation like with you and your team related to Dan's hire and that role and that position of market lead?

Jeff Walker: You know, I've always been impressed with Dan. You know, we work together closely. Even though Dan was going building this, every time we did a launch, we were intensely involved getting the videos done.

And Dan was not just a videographer, he was my director and producer. So we would be going deep into the story and the launches are very story driven. And so we worked intensely together for years, even though Dan was more of like contract part time. So when our COO came to me, I was like, that sounds amazing.

And frankly, Pat, like one of the things I'm cognizant of both of my kids that, and they're both involved, my, my daughter Joan involved, very involved in the business as well. And I don't want it to be a case of nepotism. I want them to earn their way. And they will, they want to earn their way. One of the things I love most about my kids is they're both very driven to build their own lives.

And so when my COO Jen came to me and said, I think he's fit for this role, and I think he should take on this role. I was like, hell yeah, that sounds awesome.

Pat Flynn: That's great. How about Joan? What is her role in the business?

Jeff Walker: She's sort of the concierge and our, our chief cat wrangler for our mastermind group, which is a huge role because they're not easy to manage.

And she's very much in the room helping me run those events. And also she really does, she's really in charge of process and process improvement within our company. I know that sounds super like corporate sounding, but the reality is, is we've got to big team now. And so we have to have a lot of process and she's really good at creating this process and organizing it.

And also she was another one of them where my COO came to me and said, she's just a superstar at this. We need to bring her on full time into this.

Pat Flynn: That's great. So the whole family's on, on it now, which is.

Jeff Walker: Literally the whole family. My wife's got a big role as well. My brother's got a big role too.

Pat Flynn: That's really cool.

I'm curious about the dynamics of because it's family working together, what is that like? I'd love to hear Dan, maybe your perspective first on, I mean, as a videographer, I know that there's a lot of creative things that go into that. And a lot of times the creative person doesn't necessarily always align with the person who's, who's more about process.

So give me some insight on what it's like to kind of work. Has there been any disagreements and how does One, solve that when it's your family member.

Dan Walker: Yeah, I mean, are there disagreements? Like, yeah, of course, because we're working on big creative projects, right? And I, and I would say I wouldn't necessarily call Jeff the process oriented one.

You know, I would say it's very far on the creative side as well. Although there's really three of us on the teams that are super heavily involved with like the creation of say a launcher campaign, but coming up with a strategy. So it's myself, it's Jeff, and then Justin Livingston on our team as well.

And Justin likes to say that, you know, he's the super science approach. I'm the super like kind of creative approach. And then Jeff is kind of the perfect mix of the two. But I think that's part of why it works. You know, we come at it with different points of view. I think honestly, I don't really see there being much in the way of like family dynamics, family conflict type stuff coming up.

Certainly not within that group when we're working together. I think we're all friends in addition to all of our other relationships. I think having three people working on it is a really good number. You know, it's a good number of brains to be able to come up with ideas. And there's a lot, it's a great one because you have tiebreaker folks.

And you know, at the end of the day, it's just business. And he can occasionally just, you know, He has the right to just say, this is what we're doing, but I'll say he almost never actually does that, you know, usually it's a discussion and it's, you know, someone has an opinion, someone else has an opinion and we have debates, you know, and we will go through and we'll go back and forth.

And sometimes, you know, one side gets convinced and sometimes it's you know Hey, let's, let's just try it this way. Or sometimes we end up meeting in the middle, you know, I think there's a real advantage in the way that I can really nail Jeff's voice when it comes to copy. Whereas I can, you know, write scripts, I can write emails.

I can write a lot of things where, yeah, I think partly that comes from him being my dad. I think partly it comes from the fact that, I mean, we just work together on scripting things for whatever 14 years now almost, you know, so I've been around for a really long time. It's all that but I don't know. I think we really try to keep it super professional, too You'll notice here like I call him Jeff if we're hanging out and we go skiing or something like i'll call him dad But if we're at work, i'll call him Jeff You know, it just makes more sense to me And then I think there's just parts about just being super aware like when it comes to the team, you know that You I have a level of access to Jeff that other people might not.

And I have a level of access in two ways. One, in that I'm kind of the head of the marketing efforts on the team and I'm on a senior leadership team. So just from those positions, I work closer with Jeff and just about everyone on the team. And then there's also the dynamic of that. Yeah, I have a little extra license to just give them a call, you know, but so for me, a lot of it is just awareness of that, you know, still follow the normal protocols, procedures, you know, processes for stuff and try to just consider like, Hey, in this concept, if I was not related, would I still be handling this in the same way? And if the answer is no, then there's a question there, you know, is that the right approach?

Pat Flynn: Nice dad. I mean, Jeff, would you sorry, would you agree with that?

Jeff Walker: I would, yeah, absolutely agree. So I think this is an interesting question. And first of all, I think primarily because my wife is an awesome mom, we've raised two kids that are really, easy to get along with and aware. So I think that helps.

So I think Joan and Dan are two of the people in the team that I work with the most, that I have the most interaction with. And, and it's fantastic for me. You know, I'm, we, I get along with both of them really well and they both, I think they feel free expressing themselves and their opinions to me, so I think it's great working with them.

I love that they've earned their way into this team, and they continue to earn their way, and it would really suck if they were not great at their jobs. Then it would be awkward as all hell. Now, I will tell you that having family on your team, once your team grows up into a sizable team, and, you know, we're probably about 35 people on the team right now, then it does add some cross currents, because all of a sudden, if their last name is Walker, then they have to be more aware.

Because they can't just come in and give a random opinion about something. Because it just, no matter how much we don't want it to be that way, it does carry some extra weight. And so like, if they just come into a random situation and just say, I've got this random opinion, it can, to someone else without that last name, it can feel like it's got more weight.

So I think it's incumbent on them that by de facto, they have a leadership position, and they have to be aware of that, that there's almost like a power differential, and neither of them are power hungry or flexing their muscles or power muscles, but they have to be aware in how they express themselves, if that makes sense.

Pat Flynn: Completely. I appreciate it. And I admire this conversation a lot. I am. very much in admiration of you and people like Michael Hyatt, who work with their kids and integrate them into the business really, really well. I mean, it's just so inspiring. And I imagine such a blessing for you as a father and your wife as well.

Does business come up at the dinner table? Like, is that something that injects itself in there when maybe it shouldn't? I don't know. Maybe it's okay. But I'd love your thoughts, Jeff, on sort of that component of it, since it's just like, It's family and business and it mixes.

Jeff Walker: It doesn't feel like it comes up at the dinner table too much.

And I just have to stop. I've got this woodpecker that's banging on my house.

Pat Flynn: I hear it. And I wasn't going to say anything about it and it's okay. It's okay.

Jeff Walker: I can go scare it away. They're so obnoxious. It's amazing.

Pat Flynn: The videographer says it's obnoxious. So we should probably take care of it

Dan Walker: in the video studio.

Jeff Walker: It's like, let me, this,

Pat Flynn: I'm going to keep this in by the way, because this is what makes it great. It's just real life here. Dan, all your dad's out just from your perspective as the son, like how cool is it to be working with your dad?

Dan Walker: It's great. And it's great because it does really keep a close connection.

But I think one of the really cool things about it too, and even what I was thinking, you know, when you're asked to Jeff, the dinner table question is, I think at the end of the day, for folks, like, I think for both of us, at least, you know, marketing is also a passion and a hobby and copywriting is also a passion and a hobby.

And the business is not just a job, but it's also a passion and a hobby in, in some sort of way, you know, it's it's a project that means a lot more than, you know, maybe just a job would, and so I think it does come up at times, you know, more on their table, but it's less of a like, hey, you know, how do you do this thing or hey, whatever it's, it's more like a kind of a random idea, but this would be cool to do sometime or, you know, hey, did you see when so and so did that in their launch like.

That was cool. Like, to me, it would remind me of the way, like, if I was, you know, hanging out with some of my, like, you know, buddies I go mountain biking with, and you know, you're talking about your lives and suddenly, like, Oh, did you see that sweet video that so and so put on? I'm like, yeah, you know, it's just an interest.

And so it's something that will come up in that way at times. And I think that's one of the really cool things is it gives me, it's a way that I do connect with my dad, and actually my sister now too. And in that sort of way, it's not just in a work way, but it's also a shared It's just such a big part of our lives that we share together, and that's cool.

That's amazing.

Jeff Walker: I think we're also pretty good about being aware when we don't want to talk about business. Like yesterday, actually, Dan and I went skiing, which is amazing. It was October and we're skiing. And at some point, Dan started talking work and he's like, Oh, is it, is it, you know, do you mind talking work now?

And I'm like, no, let's go for it. But you know, there's sometimes where I brought started talking work with Dan. He's like, yeah, you know, I need a break right now. So I think there's, there's an awareness too.

Pat Flynn: That's amazing. Well, I appreciate you both being open about that. How this all goes down and I, I'm inspired and I'm in admiration of it for sure.

I'd love to, since I have both of you here and you're both excellent at what you do, I'd love to kind of dive into your brains a little bit as far as marketing in general and where we are now and where things seem to be going. And Dan, I wanted to start with you. You'd mentioned and Jeff did too, the importance of story.

In the work that both of you do, Dan, if I were to get a two minute crash course from you on what makes the story great for an entrepreneur to tell, if you're trying to convince them to or convince an audience to work with you or purchase something, what are the things you look for in a story? What is working in story for entrepreneurs today?

Dan Walker: Oh, interesting. I think, you know, the quote that came to my mind is, you know, enter the conversation that's already going on in your prospect's head. One of the biggest challenges is that there's just so many channels of communication coming at everybody all the time. You know, there's probably five different apps on your phone right now in which people are trying desperately to reach you and to talk to you and to get your attention.

And so I think that initial hook. is super, super important. And, you know, I see, I'll see people starting things off and they're talking about themselves or where they came from or something, or you know, they're just saying like, you need to do this without a context or something behind it. And I think that's just kind of noise these days. I think it always has been, but nowadays people just have a more aggressive filter for that kind of stuff. So I think really dialing down into like, what is the thing that keeps people up at night? And what is the thing, and that could be a problem they have. It could be an opportunity that they are searching for.

It could be an opportunity that they can see, but they don't see that middle ground, you know, they see the, they see the, you know, the good place they want to get to, but they don't see the bridge and how to get there. And, you know, a line that steal from Jeff here, you know, is like is if you can articulate your prospects problems better than they can, then you're just going to seem like an absolute magician. You're just going to seem like absolutely legendary to folks. And the thing is, if you're further ahead on a journey than somebody, you know, if you've started a successful business, if you've grown your Instagram following successfully, you know, if you have a great thriving garden, then and you're looking at the person who's looking to achieve that success that you've had in that area, you can probably pick out their problems.

Pretty quickly, probably pick them out pretty easily. It's probably pretty obvious to you what newbie mistakes that they're making and probably what newbie mistakes they're making that they just they don't even know how to think about yet. They haven't even thought of the right questions to ask. So if you can articulate that experience that they are having to them using the words that they would use to describe the frustration or the excitement that they're feeling, and then offer them a way to move forward, then I think that's how you, you set that hook. And if you can do that really early in your communication with people that I think you've earned yourself, you've earned yourself attention, you've earned your, you've earned their attention. I think that's the most important thing right now.

Pat Flynn: I mean, that also leads to the importance of even before that, just. Knowing who you're talking to or who it is that you're targeting. And I think that's a problem that we at SPI have had for a while is we've been trying to target everybody, right? The people who are just starting out to the advanced people, to people who want a podcast, to people who do want to do this other thing.

And it's like, if a person. is getting mixed messages across things they don't necessarily want, then they're not going to believe that you have the solution that's just for them. And right now things are so specialized in many areas where it's so easy to find somebody who their expertise is literally the thing that you're having problems with.

Well, why would they go anywhere else? So I appreciate that and do a hundred percent agree with you before I move on to Jeff, Dan, who are you going to for inspirational stories right now? Who, who is telling good stories in your eyes these days? Besides you guys, of course,

Dan Walker: That's an interesting one, and it's an interesting one, more so because I don't feel like I'm trying to look outside quite as much for inspiration as I used to.

I feel like I used to, especially with video production, I feel like I used to really look outside and say, who's doing something, who's doing a style that I really like and who's watching lots of videos, try and say, oh, I wanna take that, I wanna take that, you know, the, the a steal creatively to see something that I think is really cool.

And to grab that, the problem I feel like you can end up with, with that is that then you can end up not having kind of your own style as much. You can end up being a little too. Similar to everything else. So I actually feel at the moment I'm trying to do almost the opposite. I'm trying to pull back a little bit and trying to think about, okay, what would something look like if it was just not based on anything else that I'm seeing is I think that more, I don't know, authenticity feels like real buzzwordy to say there, but it feels, it could feel a little more authentic. So I guess, I mean, maybe some of the folks I'm following the most that I like the most right now are copywriters actually, and some copywriters who tend to write in a very personal, very direct style.

There's a guy called Schaefer. He sends an email every now and again, you don't know when it's coming. And it's usually just a story. It's not even usually selling something. He's got a couple, you know, his courses and he's got a, you know, copy agency that, you know, he'll link in the email, but the main hook of it is there's just a story, he's just telling a story.

I tell you, when I get those emails, I don't even open them. I wait until I have a quiet time when I can sit down with a coffee and, you know, really digest them. I love that. You know, another copywriter, Daniel Throstle. I love his stuff and stuff is just it's just very direct. It's not trying to incorporate, he does, he's brilliant and incorporates all kinds of techniques and everything you think about, but it's also kind of like, you know, Hey, I'm doing an affiliate.

I'm promoting for this guy. And I really want to win this affiliate contest. And so in order to win this affiliate contest, I'm going to make you an offer that is so good that you're going to buy it and forget what you even bought just to get my bonuses. Cool. Are you ready? Let's start. And then he'll just like, it's just very blatant, but he's talking to people who write words to sell, right?

He's talking, he's a copywriter talking to copywriters. So there's kind of that little bit of like, you laugh at it, you know, you're like, cool. Yeah. Sell me, bro. Like, I want to see how you do this. Let's have fun.

Pat Flynn: I love that. I appreciate the honest answer there. And words are so powerful. This is the power of copywriting.

And we're in an interesting time now with AI and words automatically appearing when normally we'd have to think really hard about what to say. Jeff, what are your thoughts on the future and where AI is now with a person could hypothetically teach an AI tool to create one of these sales pages that back in the day would have crushed, but now everybody has a level of sales pages that are similar to that.

So what is going to be the difference between somebody who succeeds in a launch versus somebody who doesn't, who might be trying to quick win their way into some of this stuff?

Jeff Walker: So the level of noise has just gone through the roof. The level of competition has gone through the roof and it's not just AI.

It started with COVID and all of a sudden so many people realized they could have an online business. So, so many people started an online business. So every niche has got lots of competition. Didn't used to be that way five years ago. So there's so much competition and now with AI and the people's ability to create passable sales copy with AI, competitions just gotten that much harder. Where it's going, it's hard to not, you know, the only thing I can imagine is going to get more and more crowded, more and more noisy.

I can't imagine any other thing happening. Otherwise, it's, it's, it's a little bit hard to predict when you have just exponential growth happening, which is what's happening with AI. The thing that's working right now that feels like it will continue to work is to go deeper with fewer people, like build deeper connections and be able to, you know, understand.

We've talked about that already here, understand who your avatar is, who your persona is, who you're trying to reach and how you're going to change their life. And then just going deeper and deeper with those folks. You know, we're right now selling. We're almost sold out. We're putting together a really high end workshop, a very expensive workshop.

That's with Dan and myself and Justin. We're up a very small room. We're going to be working with a few people to build their launches. And that has been an easier sale for us than selling at the lower end. And I'm not talking about the quantity of people coming in because it's, it's a very limited offer.

But in terms of the quantity of dollars, it feels easier to sell at the very high end because it's a very, very relationship based. And, you know, right now that's something that AI can't do and isn't doing. So I think, you know, the ability to build a longterm relationship with people, none of us are going to be able to outcompete AI in terms of the number of words we put out there, but at least at this point we can outcompete AI with how we make people feel.

And, you know, I think this is one of the things Dan articulated I took from him recently is like, in your launch or your marketing, you could put out endless amounts of free information, endless, more than anyone could ever, ever consume. These days, the first sale is getting people to consume, is earning the right for them to go deeper with you.

Like if you could just for free go opt in for a, for a graduate degree at Harvard, no one would actually actually go through the work to do the degree because they are not invested enough. Just putting an email address in or hitting a like or a follow, they're not invested enough. So you have to get people invested.

First, there's a process of getting them invested to consume your marketing. Your marketing gets them invested enough to actually Go through your course or your membership or your coaching or whatever to get the result.

Pat Flynn: Amazing. I mean, this is why we're focused at SPI on building community and building those connections, those interactions that AI will never, ever allow for.

I was watching a video from Seth Godin the other day and he said the way to market these days is to consider the idea of like, what did he say? He said people Like us do things like this. So let's find those like minded people and show them how to do things like everybody else in this community can do.

Cause we'll have that understanding. Other people might not, but like you said, those niched groups of people, those communities are really what's going to, I feel the businesses that thrive in the future. And of course, if you have a business and you're launching it, you want to know how to launch it really well.

You're going to need some sort of formula. So I recommend the product launch formula for that and productlaunchformula.com. Dan and Jeff, this has been an absolute. Pleasure and honor. And Jeff, I've been a big time, long time fan of your work for a very long time. It's had an indirect impact on my work.

And now today, a very direct one through our relationship and our growing relationship. And Dan, it's just been a pleasure to meet you. And I look forward to One day, hopefully meeting the rest of the family and the amazing team that you've built. So Dan and Jeff, thank you both so much. Jeff, one more time, where can people find your work and if they could connect with you in other ways, feel free to share.

Jeff Walker: Productlaunchformula.com is the easiest way. I've got all kinds of free resources or just go to Amazon. And my book is called launch. I think it's in 16 languages was the number one New York times bestseller. So go get Launch.

Pat Flynn: Amazing. Or just JeffWalker.com to JeffWalker.com. There you go. Any, anywhere to connect with you specifically, Dan?

Dan Walker: You know, at the moment I would be the same answer, but starting to realize you probably have a little bit more front stage presence as well.

Pat Flynn: No, you're, I like how you're just keeping the blinders on, on the most important work that you're doing now, like you said, and this is just another example of that.

So anyway, I appreciate you both. Thank you so much for today. And I'll hopefully connect with you guys soon.

Alright, I hope you enjoyed that interview. That was such a fun, fun episode to record. I had a blast and they had a blast too. They sent me a message after saying that was super fun and it gives me inspiration, not just as a business owner and an entrepreneur, but as a father, as a family man, somebody who would love to one day work with his kids and family in this sort of way, maybe not necessarily in a Product Launch Formula fashion, but you know, who knows?

Maybe in the Pokemon space, wherever it's just really inspiring. It's very, Similar to how I feel about Michael Hyatt and his work with his kids and his family. So very much a lot of respect to you, Jeff. And Dan, my first time meeting you and hearing about you, and I just love what you've done and how you're contributing to the company as well.

You're a superstar as everybody in your family. So thank you, Jeff. Thank you to the Walkers.

And thank you for listening all the way through. I appreciate you for that. And I look forward to serving you in our final episode next week when we or I guess it's second to final, but it's our final Wednesday episode before 2025 and things start to take a different shape.

We are just like the product launch formula does adjusting to the times and looking to experiment and try new things to better serve you. And yes, there will still be guests on the show from time to time. However, it'll likely, and a lot of you have been saying you've been enjoying the Friday episodes where I go lightly into something or I tell a quick story.

Well, I'm going to go deeper with you on our Wednesday episodes here. We're going to get very specific with our topics and I'm going to hopefully speak to the things that you need help with and you're working on right now. And when it makes sense, there'll be a guest on related to that topic, but I'm here to serve you and I look forward to this journey with you and the next year.

So be sure to subscribe. Next week caleb and I are going to chat a bit about what's coming in a little bit more detail and how that affects you and huge shout out to all the SPI community members. I see you. I appreciate you looking forward to the shift in our office hours as well next year and hosting that inside of Circle, which is just going to make the experience even better than it has been for the last seven years.

So thank you so much. Yes, I have been hosting office hours for seven years straight over four hundred hours of office hours there, which is awesome. And I'm going to continue for those who are members of the SPI community, smartpassiveincome.com/community. If you haven't joined yet, now is the time and now's the time for me to sign off, cheers, take care, and I'll see you in the next episode.

Thank you so much for listening to the Smart Passive Income podcast at SmartPassiveIncome.com. I'm your host, Pat Flynn. Sound editing by Duncan Brown. The Smart Passive Income Podcast is a production of SPI Media and a proud member of the Entrepreneur Podcast Network. Catch you next week!

SPI 845: It’s Time to Start Your Podcast with Jenna Kutcher

Jenna Kutcher: I think that something really big happened for me when I switched from money being my currency to time being my currency. When I hit this place where I was like, I will trade money to get back my time, to get back my life. And when I actually did that I learned new strategies that took my business to seven figures. In that time I had so much more free time. I started taking online courses. I learned about growing an email list. I learned about digital marketing. I learned about online courses and my business ended up exploding.

Pat Flynn: I would care to guess that you have once had this thought before. Now whether you've acted on this thought or not is a question a lot of people I know have. Many people have had the thought but never took action on it. So what is this thought? The thought is, you have considered, at one point, starting your own podcast.

And, many of you, I know, have a podcast, but some of you have wanted to start one, or maybe have gotten in your own way to go in starting one. Well, today's guest started one, and it is a huge podcast. It's called the Gold Digger Podcast, hosted by Jenna Kutcher. And you'll hear early on how this show, the very show that you're listening to right now, was a show that was in her earbuds as she was getting started.

Now she came from the corporate world and changed her life after a five year plan was presented to her from her boss. And I'm going to tell you, this is an incredible, inspiring story, but also we get pretty deep in the world of podcasting, how to podcast, the fact that it's not too late and why, and how to approach it in a way that's going to help you and your business and change your life.

So that you can not have to work yourself to the ground doing it. But as she says, so that you can run while you rest. And I love that idea, that thought. When it comes to passive income by creating evergreen content that can do the work for you after you create it. And we're going to talk more about that today with Jenna Kutcher.

And she has a book as well. And she is just an incredibly generous woman. And I know you're going to enjoy this conversation. I had the pleasure of meeting Jenna in person for the first time, not too long ago in Tennessee with a number of other authors and she's awesome. So enjoy the show. Here she is. Jenna Kutcher.

Announcer: You're listening to the Smart Passive Income Podcast, a proud member of the Entrepreneur Podcast Network, a show that's all about working hard now, so you can sit back and reap the benefits later. And now your host, he finally crossed 1 million subscribers on his Pokemon YouTube channel, Deep Pocket Monster. Pat Flynn.

Pat Flynn: Jenna, welcome to the SPI podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Jenna Kutcher: Oh my gosh. So I have a quick disclaimer before we dive in, but you are like the OG voice in my brain and I have listened to your show long before I had my own podcast. And so it's so fun talking to you in real life because I feel like you've been in my earbuds longer than anybody.

Pat Flynn: That's insane.

And you know, there's people who can say the same thing about you now because of your podcast Gold Digger. And, you know, we just keep this wave going. And I know there's people in your audience who are starting their own podcast too. And we'll get into podcasts and all those good things, but I want to go back to your origin story and talk about a $300 camera that you purchased.

What is the deal with this camera and how did this camera change your life?

Jenna Kutcher: Yeah. So I worked in corporate America, graduated college. I had had an internship, got a job right out of college, felt so blessed and lucky. And I'm raised in the Midwest in Minnesota. Both of my parents had the same job for, you know, Oh, that's right.

30 years. And so it was kind of this mentality of like, if you are lucky to get a salary and benefits and God, a 401k, like you would be crazy to ever walk away. And I entered the corporate world and I have always just been this like high achiever. I am naturally a people pleaser. I just want to do well.

And so I was on this fast track of moving up and up and up. And I will never forget the day that my boss sat me down and she said, Hey, congratulations. Here's your five year plan. And basically handed me this five year plan. And never once had anyone ever asked me, you know, what do you want for your life?

Where do you see yourself in five years? And the company was so proud of like, here's how you're going to move up. And I had this very visceral response of both gratitude, but also this, like, Whoa, someone else is literally planning my life for me. And I remember going back to my office and there was this picture in this red frame of this cute boy who I was planning my wedding to.

And I had this moment of like, do I want to spend my life in this office, looking at this picture of him or is there a way to figure out how to do life where like we can do it together? And I had never had any entrepreneurs in my life. Neither of my parents are entrepreneurs, no examples of what entrepreneurship looked like.

But I was in this place of like dreaming, like I need an escape raft out of this ladder climb. Like this is not for me. And at the time I was planning my wedding to this cute boy in the picture. And we didn't really have money. So I was paying off student loans. We were fresh out of school. And so I had bought this camera because I wanted to document all of these different wedding things from the showers to the parties to all these different DIY projects I was doing.

And I bought this camera on Craigslist and I was reminded that I was a creative person again. I think that the monotony of this nine to five type job and being on the clock all the time, working these long hours had kind of sucked the creativity out of me. And I found myself like going to bed with this camera on my nightstand and waking up with it and like figuring out like, how do I shoot when it's dark?

Oh, when it's light out, like, what does this look like? And I started posting photos on Facebook and I said, you know, I got a camera. I want it. Let me take your picture. Just let me take your picture. And very slowly people started to say, you know, I have a cat. Can you photograph my cat? And I'm like, sure.

And it was like, I'm getting married. I had a baby, all these different things. And I was like, maybe this could be a real thing. Long story short, I ended up starting a wedding photography business and I grew it while I was still working my corporate job. Within one year, I had booked 25 weddings, having never taken an art class.

And that became my escape route out of the corporate world and into entrepreneurship.

Pat Flynn: Amazing. When you're handed a five year plan from your boss, I think a lot of people would be stoked on that, right? Especially with job security and things like climbing the ladder. It's like here, your boss sees something in you to stay with this company.

What made you have that visceral reaction to that and kind of go the opposite direction? What was it really?

Jenna Kutcher: You know, I think that. Where I was, so I was in a retail setting. I worked for Target. I love shopping at Target. Didn't love working

Pat Flynn: there.

Minnesota. Target, right?

Jenna Kutcher: Yes. Minnesota. I mean, Target is like the mecca and I had always wanted to work in the corporate setting.

I saw myself as like a buyer or like in the clothing department, not actually putting clothes on the racks in the stores, which is what I was doing as a manager. And I realized like, wait, they don't actually see me moving out of this retail setting. They didn't see me moving to corporate and moving to Minnesota and being with my family again and all of these different visions that I had for myself, even within the company.

And it was just this direct route of making more money, but working more. And what was interesting is that. Ross was amazing, it was a woman and she had two young kids and I saw the hour she put in and I will never forget her saying to me, I looked at this cute picture of her kids and I said, tell me about your children.

And she said, if I'm lucky, I get to spend an hour with them before they go to bed at night. And I thought I didn't even want kids at the time, but to me, it was like, that's not what I want for a life. Like, that's not what I envision of like spending one hour of time with my loved ones a day. And so I think it was just, This reality of like, yeah, I can move up and I can make more, but I'm going to work more.

And what is that cost?

Pat Flynn: Yeah, that future casting is really key. It almost was a blessing to get that and realize, okay, here's one option I could take. I could go down this route and spend one hour with my future kids that are, or I can go this way and you discover this world of photography. At what point during that wedding photography business did you feel comfortable leaving the corporate world?

Was that a certain dollar amount or was it a feeling? How did you make that jump?

Jenna Kutcher: So I burned the candle on both ends and worked the full time corporate job and behind the scenes was building the business. And when I had booked enough jobs to match my salary, that was when I put in my two weeks notice.

And I just told myself. Okay. I basically have one whole year planned out. If I can just give myself a year to figure this out, I know I can do it. And I ended up scaling way beyond what I had been earning at the corporate setting. But it was more of just this question of like, what's the worst that could happen?

I have experience. I'm leaving on good terms. I have a resume. Like I'm not. If I have to turn around with my tail between my legs and say, Hey, I tried to run a business and it didn't really work. And now I'm back. I knew that I would be welcomed back. And so it was interesting because I think a lot of people like fear is telling them this story of like, it is too scary.

And what I literally did is I wrote down my greatest fears and then I made action plans of like, if this happens, here's what I'm going to do. If this happens, here's what I'm going to do. And all of a sudden I was like, okay, these scenarios are really not all that bad.

Pat Flynn: What's an example of one of those fears, if you remember?

Jenna Kutcher: Yeah, I mean, it was that my business would fail and that my parents would be like, I told you so, like you should have held on to security while you had it. And so it was like, if that happens, I am hireable. Like, I know I can go out and get another job in this setting. So I wasn't very scared. It really wasn't as intimidating as my brain was making it out to be.

Pat Flynn: Yeah, we often self sabotage what could potentially happen. And so going into the wedding photography business, I mean, fast forward for today, you're not doing wedding photography. Where was that jump between wedding photography and entrepreneurship? How did that happen?

Jenna Kutcher: I shot 25 weddings the first year, 27 weddings the second year.

30 weddings a third year. And keep in mind, I am in a Northern climate, which means that all of our weddings are happening between April and October, which means that pretty much booked or double booked every single weekend of the summer. And for many years, my husband and I said, we're not going to have kids.

We're not kid people. We love just the two of us. But something really changed in our hearts. And when that happened, I had to literally plan pregnancies around my wedding schedule, right? So my whole livelihood was based in six month increments and I got pregnant. And unfortunately we lost that pregnancy.

And so I had to wait. An entire year to try again. And we got pregnant again and I lost that pregnancy. And all of a sudden I realized not only am I planning my entire life around this business that was supposed to give me freedom, but feels anything, but, but I'm also required to show up in order to get paid.

And after our second loss, I was just in a really deep. Place of grief. And yet I was showing up shooting weddings on people's happiest day of their lives while I felt like I was dying on the inside. And in that moment, I vowed like I will figure out a way to create a business that can run while I rest.

And it was just a really sobering reality because I think a lot of times entrepreneurs start businesses to get freedom and a lot of times their businesses can take over their lives, right? I mean, they say like entrepreneurs are the only crazy people to leave a nine to five to work 24 seven for themselves.

And that was really the reality. And I knew that there were different ways to run businesses that were more passive. I mean, Pat, you have literally been in my ear for over a decade. And so. When I was in that wedding season, I was like, you know what? I was happier when I made $50,000 a year just shooting smaller weddings.

What if I could go back to that? And then what if I could do even less than that? And I think that's something really big happened for me when I switched from money being my currency to time being my currency. When I hit this place where I was like, I will trade money to get back my time, to get back my life.

And when I actually did that through cutting my workload in half, being willing to make half the money, I learned new strategies that took my business to seven figures. And so we often joke because I went from earning six figures, being willing to go back to 50 K just so that I could have a few weekends with my family in the summer.

And in that time I had so much more free time. I started taking online courses. I learned about growing an email list. I learned about digital marketing. I learned about online courses and my business ended up exploding. And so what a lot of people don't realize is I have never just quickly shut off something that is working in my business.

I was still shooting weddings. Five years ago, I just slowly started going less and less and less and defining what is my enough point? Like, what do I need to make in order to make ends meet? But I will not book a job over that because time is my currency. Time is my life. And the minute that I did that, everything expanded in crazy way.

Pat Flynn: That's huge. What would you say? Imagine you're coaching somebody who is starting their business and they just want to hustle. They want to get there and put all that work into it to try to build something. And you can see you and I can see that they are going down a path like you did to overscale, overgrow.

What would Jenna say to coach that person to at least bring them back to earth and help them realize what the real goal is here.

Jenna Kutcher: I mean, here's the thing. I feel like, especially for female entrepreneurs, there are two camps right now. It's like the hustle, the work up, work more, get up early, wake up before the kids work all day, do it all.

And then there's like the manifestos, right? Like just imagine, and it will happen. And I really believe that like hustling is dream off the ground. But if hustle is the only way that the dream is sustained, then I would argue that that is not the dream. And for somebody that is starting out, I think you have to be willing to put in the time and the work and do it in a really methodical way that fits into your current life.

But you have to be able to see ahead and ask yourself, can I make money without having to show up is the only way I'm getting paid by me physically being somewhere or doing something, if it is not scalable, it is not sustainable for many people. When I look back, I was so attracted to hitting these elusive goals, like hitting six figures.

And I'll never forget Pat the day that I hit six figures, I felt more empty and burnt out than any other day in my life. And so it's like, What is success for you? And not what does success look like for you? Or what does success look like to others? But what does it actually feel like for you? And that is a question that I have had to come back to time and time again, especially being around amazing achievers.

I mean, you and I are in rooms with people where more is more. And it doesn't resonate with me. It doesn't resonate with me. A lot of times I'll leave those rooms and I'm like, I might have the smallest business, but I have the most joy. And so for me, success is like joy and peace and ease. And so creating a business that allows for ease has been really the pinnacle of creating the freedom that I had always craved, but it took me a while to get there.

Pat Flynn: That's so good. We're going to have to clip that for everybody on social because that's a very important thing to understand. And sometimes we only can understand that after having gone through the tough stuff and having gone through the mess, but hopefully people can listen in and get ahead on that.

I want to shift the conversation to your podcast because it's uber successful. The Gold Digger podcast. I remember when I first heard. Even just the name of it. I was like, that is such a good name for a podcast. And I started listening. I was like, wow, this person, Jenna has just this charisma and this way of speaking to me when I'm listening.

And I know I'm not necessarily the target entrepreneur there. It's mostly for females, but I was resonating with everything you were saying. I think you and I have similar stories. And also agree that podcasting is just such a powerful platform to share those stories. Tell me about the beginning and early days of your show and what was going through your mind when you first hit record.

Jenna Kutcher: Oh, the early days are embarrassing, but I love to relive them because I just want to hug that version of me. What's interesting, Pat, is, you know, you were around Amy Porterfield was around, there were some amazing podcasters. And so it was interesting because at one point I felt late to the game and at the other side of the coin, there weren't a lot of women in business that were successful as podcasters.

And my podcast was born strictly as an experiment. I love experimentation. I think it is something that so many entrepreneurs are missing the boat on just trying different things. And so I was. still a wedding photographer, which meant that I was shooting for six months of the year. And then I had kind of an off season.

So I said in my off season, I want to have conversations with other people. I was straight up lonely. I felt like entrepreneurship was isolation. And like I wanted to have conversations with other people who are chasing their dreams, who are messing up, who are learning new things. I started my podcast.

And what's funny is, is that my brother, who is also a fan of your show, had given me a microphone and I don't even know why he had it, but he had this fancy microphone and he was like, I feel like you should start a podcast. I remember telling him, I'm going to run out of things to say on episode three.

And now I'm. 100 episodes in and I haven't shut up. So he knew something, but I was so afraid of the tech. I didn't even know how to plug the fancy mic in, let alone figure out how to record through it. And so I sat in the front seat of my parked car in my cold garage in the Midwest, and I hit record and I had iPhone headphones because that's.

All I knew how to use. And I just started talking and it's interesting. And I love that that was kind of the birthplace of the Gold Digger podcast, because for many, many years I recorded the show either in my car or in our spare closet that had boxes with random stuff in it. And it was just this way to connect with other people and then ultimately just share, share what I was learning, share what I was experiencing, share what I was experimenting on, share what I had messed up on.

And it has just been such an honest look into my life and business, but it has also afforded me the opportunity to connect with people that I have dreamt of connecting with, right? Like, isn't it amazing, Pat, that like, we get to sit down and pick the brains that of people that we admire people that we would never have the opportunity to do that because we have a platform and we're willing to allow them the space to share their story.

So it has just been such a labor of love. I think podcasting is a lot easier than people think, but it's There's a lot more to it than it appears. And so it's this interesting juxtaposition of it's not that hard, but there's also a lot to know about it. And I just, I love it. Like I, I love it. And I love that my life is documented in such a way that like my children's children's children can go back and listen to the stories that I've shared on it.

Pat Flynn: That's so cool. Tell me about a guest that comes to mind that you've had on the show and. You know, that way we can link to it. And, you know, you say you get to connect with all these amazing people. I agree. It's, it's, it's incredible. I wouldn't have afforded the chance to get a chance to speak to Tim Ferriss or Gary Vaynerchuk, or, you know, even our mutual friend, Amy Porterfield.

She and I really built our friendship on each other's podcasts in a way. But who's a guest that. Was on your show that you can remember that conversation.

Jenna Kutcher: Matthew McConaughey. That was wild. I remember my dad called me while I was on the line with Matthew McConaughey and I missed the call. And then I called my dad back and I was like, Hey, sorry.

I was just chatting with Matthew McConaughey. And he's like, what? Things like Barbara Corcoran. I love shark tank. So like talking to her. Amazing. Our friend, lovey Ajayi Jones, fabulous interview. She's just an amazing person. Tiffany Alicia. Like. Just people that are doing amazing things. And like, they get to share their expertise with you and your audience.

Like, it's just crazy to me. And I think it's awesome because you don't have to be an expert in everything and you get the opportunity to allow other people to share their expertise. It's like a masterclass in every single episode. So like I leave feeling inspired and then knowing that like, this is going to hit the airwaves.

It's just the best feeling in the world.

Pat Flynn: Matthew McConaughey, that's amazing. What's your prep work like for a show? Like imagine Matthew and you have them booked on the calendar and he's coming up on the schedule. What are you doing to prepare for that mentally? And you know, are you doing some research or how are you approaching your episodes?

Jenna Kutcher: So like for his, I listened to his audio book. So I did the audible of Green Lights, which was fantastic by the way, if anyone hasn't listened to it. Um, A lot of times I know my guests and so like I am choosing people who I have met or I know or I followed their work intimately. And so a lot of my guests, I feel comfortable, like I feel like we already know each other.

We already have a rapport for people like Matthew or Barbara. Like I'm listening to their podcasts, I'm listening to other interviews, but one thing I always want to challenge myself and I think that this is an interesting piece of podcasting is that I always want the interview to feel different and special.

You know, I had a book come out and I did a podcast tour and it was so easy for people to ask the same questions over and over again. And so one thing that I do with every guest before I start the interview is what is something that no one has been asking you about that you've been thinking about or that you have been dying to share?

And I feel like that I was set up the conversation in a really unique way, where a lot of times there's so much happening behind the scenes or something that's keeping somebody up at two in the morning that they haven't really been able to talk about, or they maybe haven't created content about. And so I feel like that gives you the pulse of like where that person is now, maybe not where they've been or what they've been talking about.

And I just love asking that question because it really opens someone up. In maybe a more vulnerable state or just gives them the opportunity if like something is really passionate and everyone's asking them about something else, they aren't really given that chance. And so I love to kind of platform in that way and try to meet my guests where they're at and with something that they're excited about.

Pat Flynn: I love that. In fact, that word right there excited is is where I often start. I ask a person what's exciting in your life today. And like you said, that way we can get kind of what's in their mind right now. It's the same question I ask kids when I meet them versus like, what do you want to be when you grow up?

I always ask like, what's exciting to you right now? And I just love the answers that come from that. So everybody should definitely borrow that when you start a podcast.

I know there's a lot of listeners who are curious about starting a podcast, have contemplated it, perhaps have even bought that microphone, but have yet to record that first episode. And maybe a part of the worry is it is too late. I mean, you thought that I know I was early on it, but I also coach a lot of people like you do on podcasting.

And I mean, I want to hear your thoughts on that question. If a person comes to you and says, Jenna, it's too late. There's, there's way too many podcasts. It's oversaturated. The market that I'm in has enough amazing speakers and all these charismatic hosts that I can't compete with. How would you respond to that?

Jenna Kutcher: Oh, gosh, it's never too late. It was interesting. I was actually just researching podcasting in general the other day because someone had said, I'm like, have you noticed that like all of your favorite celebrities or reality TV stars or like movie stars are all starting podcasts, right? So like they're jumping in right now too. And it is because it is such a beautiful direct line to the people that you're trying to speak with. And what I think is super interesting is that so many people see people like you and I who are able to now speak to the masses, but they forget that when we first started, we were not speaking to the masses.

We simply started. And a lot of times people will message me and they'll say like, you know, if I had your amount of followers on Instagram, these are the things I would talk about. And I'm like, Start talking about those things now. That's how you grow your following. Same thing with a podcast. And what I think is beautiful about podcasting is unlike a lot of the social media platforms that where we're battling all these different algorithms, podcasting really kind of acts almost like a search engine.

And if you're really good with keywords and using words that your ideal audience is searching for. They can find you. I do not think that it is too late to start a podcast. I think now is actually the perfect time to begin. And I also just think that now you get to learn from other people like Pat and myself who have done all the things, who have made all the mistakes, who have showed up consistently and know what it takes to do that so that you can fast track your success.

I think starting a podcast can be one of the easiest moves you make into growth, whether it supports your business or it becomes your business.

Pat Flynn: Agreed 100%. I'm curious your thoughts, Jenna, on video podcast. This is, it's not new, but it is catching a wave right now. And a lot of these celebrities that you are speaking of who are starting a podcast are on video sitting down in this, like a beautiful studio and, you know, Lewis Howes has his show School of Greatness and, uh, you know, a number of other people are getting on the video podcasting train, which is essentially a YouTube version of the podcast.

What are your thoughts on that? Because I know. On one hand, it's like, okay, YouTube is where the growth could happen. Podcasting, it's a little bit harder to get that search volume and sort of the algorithm wave that you could get on YouTube. But at the same time, like video is a whole nother beast. What are your thoughts on somebody who's curious about the world of video podcasting on top of their audio show?

Jenna Kutcher: So here's what I would say. And I was audio only for 650 episodes. The reason why I started a podcast was because I didn't want to have to look a certain way. And for me being a photographer, I am a highly visual person. I like things to look a certain way. I want to make sure I have makeup on. I look, you know, I tried to do the whole YouTube thing for a while.

And I just, it took me out of my groove. It took me away from why I started my podcast in the first place. And what's interesting to me is I think that the video thing can work. If you are in person, I don't want to leave Duluth, Minnesota. I started a podcast so I can connect with people all over the world.

And so for me, audio first is the way that I've always looked at my show. Video is 1000 percent secondary. And what I am telling people, if they are starting out. Is shoot the video with whatever you've got. If it is your FaceTime camera, if it is a webcam, whatever it is, have the video start with the audio first.

If you ever want to use that video in the future, go for it, but get really consistent at showing up with your voice. First video can come after. And what I found that's interesting to me personally is that with YouTube, it almost felt like I was cannibalizing my people that were already listening to the show, and this is a generalization, but it is one that I believe is that most women looking at my own user habits, I listen to podcasts while I am cooking dinner while I'm getting ready while I'm washing the dishes while I'm packing lunches. I am not watching something. And so for me, I feel like most of my people are listening and multitasking. And so saying, okay, come off of this platform that you're already on to come watch.

People just sitting in an office talking back and forth. It just didn't make sense for me personally. I can totally see that people can be successful with it, but it added too many elements that took me away from the authenticity that I craved and the whole reason why I started my podcast. So, for me, it's audio first.

What do you think about that, Pat?

Pat Flynn: I'm also in the audio first camp. I do feel like, and I'm loving YouTube right now for like my Pokemon stuff. So I see the potential there.

Jenna Kutcher: Yes.

Pat Flynn: However an educational channel that is a podcast based program is not as entertaining as like Opening cards. So it's harder to get that attention.

It's harder to hold that attention. However, if you can do that, I mean, you're in the money, but like you said, it's a whole nother beast and it can take you away from the effort of, you know, finding your voice. If you're just starting out, I think a lot of people want to experience that growth. Before they even know what they're growing.

And so like you, I do recommend starting the audio portion first, finding your voice, getting those systems in place, getting used to being on the camera, be getting better at communication, telling stories, connecting with people, building relationships. And then you can take that and sort of turn it into a video version or add on top of it something else later in order for a remote video podcast to work.

I've only seen it work on a few channels like Ramit Setti, who does a really good job, and even then he's recording separate intros that hook people in and you know, there's like the Diary of the CEO podcast, right? The first minute of it is like a Netflix trailer. And so you kind of have to understand the YouTube behavior, the consumption behavior to make it work.

And it is a whole different beast. And, you know, we teach YouTube here at SPI as well, and it's its own course. So to combine that with the podcast course, it's like twice as much work. I agree with you audio first, and then you could add that on on top of it if you want. Now, for those who are doing a podcast, whether it's video or, of course, audio, what do your strategies for building relationships.

A person's just starting out. They don't have those relationships yet. Have huge download numbers to then attract people to come on their show. How would you advise that they begin those relationship building processes to connect and bring people on a show or even appear on other people's show?

Jenna Kutcher: Our friend Russell Brunson, he has the dream 100 idea, which I love where he literally sits down and maps out a hundred dream guests that he would have on his show, on his stages, whatever that is. And I remember doing that exercise at the very beginning. And one of the things that I did was I made sure that I would follow, like, are you following all the people that you're dreaming about? I would set up alerts for when those people would post.

And I would make sure that I was encouraging in the comments, following along and really paying attention to what are they passionate about? What are they sharing? And then I would maybe slide into their DMS and just say like, Hey, I loved this poster. I love your take on this, or I really am appreciating your content about X, Y, or Z.

And that can oftentimes open the door. And what I think is interesting is that a lot of times guests don't necessarily care about how big your show or your audiences, they care that they are getting a platform where they get to be the hero for the story, right? And if you are a great interviewer, you are giving somebody the opportunity to share their story, their passions, their expertise, and really give them this stage.

And so what's really interesting to me is that a lot of times people will pitch and If they notice something in me that is unique or they see something that, you know, maybe other people have been missing. I'm like, Oh wow, you're really paying attention. And so I think it's really interesting in that light of like, it doesn't necessarily have to be a huge platform.

If you are giving somebody the opportunity to share their story, that's amazing. The other thing is, is that you are giving them content where they're bragging, but they're being asked to brag that they can share with their audience, right? It's a lot. easier to share somebody interviewing you talking about yourself versus you just talking about yourself, right?

And so you are really giving somebody a gift by having a podcast and dedicating an episode to them. And so you have to approach it not from this way of a big ask, but like, here's what I can offer you. Like I am offering you an hour of your time to share what you love and what's changed your life. And you can share this content with your audience and this can be your little brag book compliments of me.

And so I think that can be really huge and it's not as intimidating. The other thing I will say is that if you can get just one notable guest on your show that you can leverage in your asks and you can say, I had Pat Flynn on my podcast and if people know who Pat Flynn is, oh my gosh, wow, Pat Flynn went on this podcast.

So I better say yes. And so there is a lot of leverage there that can also happen. So if you have an in, or if you can just get one recognizable name on your show, you know, I also think that that can give you a lot of leverage where other people will be more apt to say yes once they see that name.

Pat Flynn: Now, when your show grows bigger like yours, I imagine that you are getting a lot of people who are asking to be on your show, who you don't even know yet.

How many of those inquiries come in and what's your filter for who to pay attention to, who to say yes to? I get so many, I like Jenna, I get like hundreds like a week and it's ridiculous. And, you know, 80 percent of them are just like Hi host of Smart Passive Income. Yeah. You know, it's like, uh, you're out, but I'm curious your filter for, so you get hundreds and it's important to not just say yes to all those, because especially some of them will want to pay you.

Like there's a lot of opportunities that come in. How are you able to manage those inquiries and keep the values that you have and that you want on the show? still there when all these new opportunities are coming your way?

Jenna Kutcher: Yes. Okay. So I am a person. So one thing to note, I have one team member that works with me on the Gold Digger podcast.

That's it. Like we do not have a full production team. I do not have multiple producer. It is me and one other girl running the whole thing. And so I don't have this like massive team. And so inquiries are really interesting. And so she does the first pass through them. So they automatically go through her We have a board in our project management software.

We, we use Monday.com and so any that look interesting, she will drop onto a board and then I will go through and look at the name, what their topic was, and I'll click over and maybe either look at their website or their social media. One thing that's been. Important to us. And we've been doing this, I believe, since 2018 is that 40 percent of our guests are women of color.

And I think that's really important to just invite in diverse voices, diverse backgrounds, diverse topics. We are always really looking at like, how can we bring in other voices for our audience to hear? To be the representation of our diverse audience. And so that's something that we're always paying attention to.

The other thing is, is that I want people that are so familiar with our show that they can see gaps in our content. So one of my favorite pitches is like, if somebody is like. Jenna, I have listened to hundreds of episodes of your show. I've noticed that you've never talked about X, Y, or Z. Here is why I'm the expert on this topic.

I would love to have this conversation. When people can point out a gap for me, I actually really appreciate it because it's like, Oh wow, I've never even thought to talk about that topic or I've never found somebody that could lead a discussion on that topic. That's interesting to me. So it's not even about how many followers you have or what, how much money you've made, but like, what is a topic that we haven't covered yet or that we have a hot take on or something different, or maybe an unpopular opinion, or maybe I've changed my mind on what I think about it.

How can we have those types of conversations? And so I think that that's really interesting. And one thing I've noticed is a lot of times our well known guests don't actually perform the best. It's a lot of times the micro influencers that perform really well for our audience. One, they're way more relatable, right?

Like we love Matthew McConaughey, but we're not going to become Matthew McConaughey. And so maybe, you know, my friend Camille, who runs an Etsy shop, who figured out a way to automate her orders. Is going to be a more interesting conversation for our listener. It's also interesting to note that people that have smaller platforms, this is a huge opportunity for them.

So you better believe they're going to email their list. If they have one, they're going to post 10 times about it on social. They're going to comment back to anyone who comments on their post about their episode. Like they are in it, they're paying attention. And so I just think that when people come with an interesting pitch, I don't necessarily care who you are, how many followers you have, I want to know, what are we going to talk about and why is this valuable for our audience?

And so that's kind of the filter that I put everything through for my show.

Pat Flynn: I love that. And amazing advice for any of you who are looking to become guests on not just any of our shows, but any show that's out there. You want to come at it from a value first perspective. What can you offer that audience?

And learning about that show is really key. And I agree with you. When people. When it's obvious that they have listened to the show and they can see those gaps and they come in with a story that can fill in those gaps, it's, it's almost like, it's not guaranteed, but I mean, you're actually going to get me to think about it at least, which is a lot more than I can say about most of the inquiries come in.

I want to ask you about your. I guess we can call it a funnel, but from the podcast, so people listen to your podcast. What are the call to actions or the call to action that happens to get them into your email list? And I think maybe just that conversion is what I'm most curious about from podcast to email list.

What are you doing to capture those emails? Because most people, like you said, are listening while doing chores or traveling, walking, driving. It's a very difficult thing to get a person to take action from listening to a show. How does Jenna do it?

Jenna Kutcher: I mean, we kind of come at it from every angle and I always argue, you know, when people say marketing is so confusing, I'm like, I feel like marketing is two main things.

One is your email list growing and serving it. And two is. Any other activity you're doing should be to get people off of the platform you're on and onto your email list. So whether you're growing Instagram podcast, YouTube, Facebook, TikTok, how are you getting people off of these platforms that you do not own and cannot control onto your list?

So I feel like that is marketing simplified, in my opinion, when podcast. So we have a few different ways. So we love to look at our content as evergreen, much like you, somebody could listen to a show from a year ago and it's still relevant and it's still applicable and it's still valuable. And so we're always looking at ways that our evergreen content can live on and continue to serve.

And for us, and something that a lot of people don't know about podcasting is that when we look at like our monthly downloads, we get a huge chunk on the new episodes, but we get the majority of our downloads on our backlog, meaning episodes that have been published before the month. And so people are often searching for specific keywords or things that they need help with, and then finding our show or a specific episode.

And so a lot of times, if it is in the channel of something that I teach on. So I teach on Pinterest, podcasting, email list, building Instagram, we will make sure that we have a call to action. Our most common call to action would be to attend a free webinar. I love webinars. I teach so much content on webinars.

I just think webinars are the way that I grew in scale, my business learning from them, and then also buying online courses from the people that I really got value from. And so we integrate those oftentimes into the content. When we go into live launches, we do dynamic ads, meaning there is an ad spot inserted into every single episode.

So whether you're listening to episode one or episode 808, you are going to hear a quick 60 second clip about what is coming up because it is new. It is live. It is timely and you want to sign up for it. And so using that dynamic ad strategy is really awesome during live launches because it'll capture people right then and there.

One of the things that I often say, Pat is like, pause this right now and go to, and then whatever the URL is to give people that directive of like, I know you think you're going to come back to this. The chances are that you're not. So hit pause right now. Go save your seat and then come back to this show.

We also really look at like covert mentions and overt mentions. So thinking through like some episodes, I can just passively talk about my Pinterest course and talk about maybe the success of a student without actually selling the course, right? Just. Mentioning, Hey, I have this course. And one of my students, Abigail, you know, got a million views on Pinterest by using this strategy.

And that provokes curiosity. Right. And then there's more overt marketing where it's like, Hey, here are five students who took this course and here's the results are getting, let's talk to them and talk about what they're doing. And so looking through ways at like. On all of my solo shows, like what is a way to have some sort of invitation?

That would be the logical next step for someone who is ready to take action on this topic, making sure we invite it, making sure it's in the show notes. It's in the show description, the hyperlinks are right there. It's really easy to get to. And then we also leverage our blog as our show notes. There is so much searchability.

There is search engine optimization. We make sure the links are in there as well. So even if somebody doesn't listen to the podcast, we are almost getting double the amount of content by creating show notes that read as a blog post, that link to the audio, and then also have all the links to the places specifically to opt in.

And when people can click over to our blog, we have other ways to capture that traffic, like pop ups. We have screamer bars on our website and different ways to do that as well.

Pat Flynn: Amazing. I love the idea of show notes, not just being like bullet points, but actually being read as a blog post. I imagine that helps for search engine optimization.

Anybody who sort of organically finds those posts on your website and the website is where Jenna?

Jenna Kutcher: JennaKutcher.com is our main home on the web. And then JennaKutcherBlog.com is our blog. I love blogging. I mean, I literally got started as a blogger and so blogging is still just like something I enjoy, but it is amazing because I think a lot of times people forget that like your podcast can turn into social content, email content, blog content. You think you're just creating for one thing, but if you're doing it right, it can show up in all of the places. And then golddiggerpodcast.com is for our show.

Pat Flynn: And you also have a book. How are you really? Can you give me a 30 second synopsis of that read for anybody who's curious?

Jenna Kutcher: Yes. Oh my gosh. I love my book. The book was written during COVID and it is written for people more specifically women to just get honest about what type of life you want to live. So if the beginning of this conversation resonated of what is success for me and how do I want my life to feel? This is the book to ask the bigger questions so that you can give the answers that really help you get to a life where you can answer the question.

How are you really honestly and with conviction that you are amazing.

Pat Flynn: So good. And I imagine that's linked to on JennaKutcher.com, but on Amazon as well. Yes. Cool. Jenna, thank you so much for your time today. I know you're a busy mom and busy entrepreneur, but thank you so much for the time and the wisdom.

I learned a number of things. I'm going to start to implement some of those call to actions on the podcast very soon. So thank you for that. And honestly, if there's anything I could do for you, Jenna, let me know.

Jenna Kutcher: This was such a treat. And I mean, it's a very full circle moment. I feel like I'm on a famous podcasters podcast.

So thank you for having me and thank you to your listeners. I'd love to hear what your favorite takeaway was.

Pat Flynn: Awesome. Where can we share that perhaps on what's your preferred social platform?

Jenna Kutcher: I am the only person that logs into my Instagram. I do not have a team that does anything. So if you shoot me a DM saying you listened to this episode, I will be the one to see it and respond.

And I would just love to hear from you.

Pat Flynn: Amazing. And congrats on hitting 1 million followers there on Instagram recently. I saw that happen. That's amazing. Jenna, this was a pleasure. Thank you so much.

Jenna Kutcher: You are the best.

Pat Flynn: All right. I hope you enjoy that interview and conversation with Jenna. Jenna is so amazing and her knowledge about podcasting goes far and wide and it's so cool that, you know, I hope that you can understand that in some worlds, she and I would be competitors because we both serve people through teaching entrepreneurship, especially podcasts. A lot of her content is about teaching podcasts, yet we're great friends. We support each other. In fact, after this call was over, she was like, Pat, I know you have a book coming out.

I'm going to give you all the resources I have that helped my book become a bestseller. Cause I want you to become a bestseller too. And I was like, Oh my gosh, Jenna is absolutely amazing. She did that off the air, but I wanted to present that here to you just to show you what kind of person she is.

She's great. And I do recommend you check out her book, her podcast, the Gold Digger podcast, and also her website, JennaKutcher.com Thank you, Jenna. And thank you for listening all the way through to I appreciate you and we're here to help you work so that you can live, not live so that you can work.

Cheers. Take care and I'll see you in the next episode. Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Smart Passive Income podcast at SmartPassiveIncome.com. I'm your host, Pat Flynn. Sound editing by Duncan Brown. The Smart Passive Income Podcast is a production of SPI Media and a proud member of the Entrepreneur Podcast Network. Catch you next week!

SPI 843: From Action Figures to Big Profit with Jax Navarro

Jax Navarro: Let's get uncomfortable because we tend to undervalue ourselves, right? So my thing was, let's just get a little bit uncomfortable. And maybe add twenty percent after you get that uncomfortable rate. That's kind of the advice I give the people when they approach me. It's like, "How do you know what to charge?" I'm like, "What are you planning to charge?"

And so, they'll give me a figure, let's just say it's $1,000. I'm like, "Well, how does $4,000 make you feel?" And they'll say, "Yeah, it makes me a little nervous." I'm like, "Well, maybe that's your number then. Let's try that."

Pat Flynn: You know, I get really inspired when I see somebody who's really good at something, who has a specialty or a talent, and then utilize the internet to amplify how many people know this person is talented. And, you know, to be able to turn that into a business, to be able to continue to stay creative, to continue to play.

It's the dream and this person is still just getting started right now, and we're talking about my buddy Jax over at Plastic Action, Jax Navarro. If you don't know who Plastic Action is, you may have come across his content before. He does toy photography and toy stop motion animation. And just to give you an idea of just how big some of his videos have gotten, he did a video five days ago that was a couple of toys, one that looked like Mike Tyson, because it was, boxing against Jake Paul's brother, Logan Paul, because Jake Paul is not cool enough to have his own figurine.

Anyway, this was all leading up to the Mike Tyson and Jake Paul fight on Netflix, and this Video, this one video, 5 second clip, has 12 million views at this point. He created another one that was a animation of a story between Kevin Garnett and him playing basketball with Prince. And when he came out with that video, that video has 5 million views.

And then he came out with a second video which was more of a behind the scenes of how he did that. 3.2 million views. You can find him on Instagram, you can find him on TikTok, you can find him on YouTube. Again, Plastic Action. And we're going to talk about his business today. How he got started, how he got into this.

Because he's definitely doing what a lot of people would love to do, play. And make money doing it now. He, like I said, is just getting started. In fact, I've had the pleasure of working with Jacks for the last about six months. In fact, as a coach for him and helping him sort of navigate the field that he's in and try to get better deals with companies and take some of this stuff to another level on YouTube and other places too.

So he's still got so much upside and there's so many new connections happening in his space because of his talent. So I recommend you check that out, but listen to this episode. We've got a half hour of amazing behind the scenes and how this all happens and some of the inner workings of a business like this toy photography, stop motion animation, Plastic Action.

Here we go.

Announcer: You're listening to the Smart Passive Income Podcast, a proud member of the Entrepreneur Podcast Network, a show that's all about working hard now, so you can sit back and reap the benefits later. And now your host. To no one's surprise, he was appointed the official videographer of his son's high school marching band, Pat Flynn.

Pat Flynn: Jax, welcome to SPI, man. Thank you so much for being here.

Jax Navarro: Thanks for having me, Pat. I'm a huge, huge fan of the show. I'm a huge fan of what you do, so it's an honor to be here.

Pat Flynn: You know, I could say the same thing about you and I'm honored that you're here. You know, I didn't even know that you followed the brand and kind of, we're listening to SPI and you've gone to a lot of Lewis Howes events and those kinds of things.

Like I just saw you plastic action on Instagram creating some of the most. entertaining stop motion videos I had ever seen, and I can't remember what was the first one. It might have been, might have been like a Toy Story one, or I can't remember a sports related one, but there's so many now that I just am so intrigued by the work that you do.

For people listening who can't see what you do quite yet, I would advise people go watch because you're going to be blown away, but what is it that you do?

Jax Navarro: I run a brand called Plastic Action. Plastic representing toys and action representing me bringing these toys to life. So I do that in two ways. I do it through photography.

Which we call toy photography. And I do it through stop motion animation.

Pat Flynn: Now there's a huge industry. I mean, not huge, but like there's, cause I remember at comic con, there was like presentation specifically for toy photography people. And you were there with a number of other people. I got to meet a couple of your friends there at comic con this past year.

Has this been a thing for a while? Like the toy photography and space, like tell me a little bit about that. About that. That's I'm just so curious.

Jax Navarro: Yeah, you know, I don't know how long it's been around to be honest with you but I discovered it back in 2016, which I had no idea it existed and the way that I've stumbled upon it is you know, my wife bought me a little Star Wars droid BB 8 when the force awakens came out and And I decided to photograph it because I thought it was like, it looked very interesting because I was super into photography at the time.

And so I posted it on Instagram and it got some pretty good engagement. Like, wow, this looks kind of cool. What figure is that? And from there, you know, Instagram did its thing and started recommending posts that are similar to mine, and it was toy photography, and what I saw was, like, super cinematic photography of action figures.

I mean, we're talking, like, stuff you would see in a movie. on movie stills. So when I saw and discovered that these images were pictures of toys, I was like, Oh man, I need to try this. So I bought some figures and it's been honestly an obsession ever since.

Pat Flynn: It's been like eight years since then. Yeah. What were you doing at this time for like work when you discovered this new hobby of yours?

Jax Navarro: So I was in telecommunications and I was on the network support side. Super geeky, I guess you can say, because I was fixing circuits and I was looking at zeros and ones on circuit data and trying to fix these high bandwidth circuits.

Pat Flynn: So completely different.

Jax Navarro: Completely different.

Pat Flynn: And then how long ago did you quit that to now pursue this full time?

Jax Navarro: It was recent. So back in 2023 is when I pulled the plug. I walked away. I'm like, I'm done. If I don't walk away now, I'm never going to walk away. So I did.

Pat Flynn: What is a business model for somebody doing this kind of stuff? What does that look like? Cause, and feel free to share some of the numbers that you have to, cause some of these things are ridiculous.

See, I mean, you just created a stop motion video featuring a story from Kevin Garnett. Who's a basketball player. He told a story about Prince, the singer formerly known as, and you animated it. And in like two days, it got like 4 million views and the attention of Shaquille O'Neal. And you have all these like celebrities kind of, you know, seeing this talent and what you have.

Gosh, sorry. I just have so many questions because it's so cool. Like, like you're taking an art form and you're turning it into this cool business and you have this business model and you're getting all these millions of views. You're getting connections with celebrities. All this stuff happened because your wife bought you a BB 8 droid. So that's pretty amazing. But what, like, are you getting paid for this? How are you getting paid for it? Tell me a little bit more to maybe even inspire some of the artists or hobbyists that are listening right now.

Jax Navarro: Yeah. So it started as a hobby back in 2016 and I was just so obsessed with it and really just wanted to focus on the art itself.

I never looked at it as something I can monetize on. It was just like really fun to do. Like whatever spare time that I had, I would do it. And back in 2016, pretty early on, a few months after I started doing this, Hasbro took notice and wrote like, Hey, we love this shot of yours. Can we use this and display this image at Comic Con?

And I was like, yeah, I was like, Comic Con, like the biggest. convention for geeks. I'm like, yeah, of course. So after that, I just kind of looked at it differently. Like, hmm.

Pat Flynn: They paid you for that?

Jax Navarro: They didn't. They didn't. It was just like, I just thought it was cool. You know? Yeah, use it. And I was just like, all right, maybe this could turn into something.

So from that point, I was like, maybe I should start treating this as a potential business. And granted, at the time, Like I don't have an entrepreneurial bone or business sense at the time in my body. So I was just like, what's the first thing I can do? I'll start a website. All right. So I started searching for plastic action domains.

I registered for it. I had no idea how to even start a website, but looked on YouTube, started a website. But I was like, what am I going to even put on this website? You know, just, I can put stuff I made on Instagram, but it would just be like a mirror image of Instagram. So at that point I was like, okay. I need to work with companies to build credibility, trust, and a reputation that not only do I have talent, but I'm able to work with companies and provide a service to them.

So, so that was the first thing I put on my website was that, you know, that Hasbro display. And then I got to work with them a year later, again, that was unpaid, but I saw value outside of that. You know, it was more about the, you know, building the credibility, building a relationship and getting that name, that Hasbro name on my website.

And now I have a great relationship with them and I've done multiple paid projects with them. So it's, it's paid off.

Pat Flynn: That's so cool. So it wasn't a, just like, Oh, I started making money right away after getting all this attention. I think that's a big, important lesson is you kind of have to, especially as an artist, you need to kind of build a name for yourself first.

And I also love what you said about, okay, well, I still need to make some money somehow from, from this work. So let me go find other clients. So, you know, in addition to Hasbro, which you were just kind of developing this relationship with, who else did you do work with and do you remember your first paid gig and maybe what that was like?

Jax Navarro: Yeah. My first paid gig was for Schick, the shaving brand company, the razor. It's the oddest thing. So they approached me and said, Hey, we have this really funky character named HydroBot. And it was basically a razor that turned into like a transformer. Like, that's weird. So they, and they had a comic about it.

And they're like, yeah, let's, is there a way that you can kind of feature this comic? And I was like, yeah, I could do that. So I created like, I think it was bumblebee, like under a tree, like reading this hydro bike comic.

Pat Flynn: Oh, that's cool.

Jax Navarro: Yeah, it was, it was cool. It was a good experience. It was, it wasn't a lot of money, but again, it was like another big name that I can add to the portfolio and it was like a 300, 350, 370 gig. So, you know, it was, it probably paid for my cable bill that month and that was pretty good. But, you know, over the longterm, it helped build my reputation.

Pat Flynn: You don't have to mention the company, but fast forward for today, like what. What maybe is the biggest deal that you've done for, for a company?

Jax Navarro: Money wise?

Pat Flynn: Yeah, just to get a ballpark understanding of like what's possible here.

Jax Navarro: 75k was my biggest deal.

Pat Flynn: 75k for like one job? I mean, I know that It's not just like push button easy. And I want to get into your process a little bit, just to kind of showcase, like just what it takes to do this and why it's not something that just anybody can pick up and do and why you should charge a high premium amount for this.

But 75 K that's a lot of money for doing some stuff that you love to do.

Jax Navarro: Yeah. That's I mean, it's unreal because I was like, how did I even pull that one off?

Pat Flynn: I'm curious about like, what advice would you give to somebody who's like, Oh my gosh, like, I want to get to that level. What would you offer as far as advice for somebody who's kind of just getting started out or maybe they have a few like art deals with companies, but you know, that, that's a big project.

How did you get there?

Jax Navarro: Yeah, it was, it was a long journey, man. I mean, it started like, like you said, from being free to hundreds of dollars to thousands and then multiple thousands. And I gamified it, man. I just, like, set these goals and, you know, first was a thousand. Can I break a thousand? And so I would offer that to a client and, you know, with no hesitation, they're like, sure, we can do it for a thousand.

Like, it's that easy, huh? So let's try 5k and see what we can get with 5k and then I would offer 5k and same thing, no hesitation, you know, sometimes they would disagree or have a counteroffer, but you know, I would eventually get that 5k and then agree to 10k and then I just always tell myself, let's get uncomfortable because we tend to undervalue ourselves, right?

So my thing was, alright, let's not go uncomfortable. Let's just get a little bit uncomfortable. And maybe add 20 percent after you get that uncomfortable rate. And that's kind of the advice I give the people when they approach me. It's like, how do you know what to charge? I'm like, honestly, I really don't know, but what are you planning to charge?

And so they'll give me a figure, you know, let's just say it's 1,000. I'm like, well, how does it, How does 4,000 make you feel if you offer 4,000 and they'll say, yeah, it makes me a little nervous. I'm like, well, maybe that's your number then. Let's try that. And a lot of times they'll, they'll accept. With no hesitation.

So that's kind of been the formula for me and it may not work for everybody, but it's, it's worked for me. And I continue to do that with every project is just kind of get uncomfortable.

Pat Flynn: I love it. How much are you saying yes to jobs or inquiries that are also just outside your skill range. I I'm just curious, like, are you saying yes to things that you know how to do, or are you also like getting uncomfortable with the thing that you are asked to do that maybe you have to then figure out?

I'm curious to when it comes to like the skills and how you kind of put that into your process, like where's your head at with your ability to do these things that some of these companies are asking you to do?

Jax Navarro: I love that question because I feel like every project that I get is super uncomfortable because the, these clients don't know my limitations.

So, you know, a lot of times they want me to think of creative, but a lot of times they have these ideas. An example from my last project with Hasbro and Marvel, they had the idea of bringing the toys to life so they're actually in the packaging and I would animate them and busting out of the package.

And I thought that was the greatest idea, but I had no idea how I was going to execute that. So, it made me super nervous to accept that concept, but I knew there was a way to do it, I just had to just kind of let go of the anxiety first and then really just sit down and then step by step figure this out.

To answer your question, I love getting those uncomfortable and concepts that I don't know how to accomplish because you figure it out, you know, once you're there, you figure it out.

Pat Flynn: And then you have to figure it out, right?

Jax Navarro: You have to figure it out. Exactly. And it's another thing you just add to your tool belt.

Once it's done.

Pat Flynn: That's true. I like to call those almost voluntary force functions is what I call them, so you're voluntarily putting yourself in a situation that raises the stakes, adds some pressure, but we'll get you to figure out how to do the thing, which like you said, adds to your tool belt, your repertoire.

And then you could charge more because now you have more skill and are able to accomplish more for the next client or for that same client again. Speaking of clients, I'm curious, Jax, on, you had mentioned a few that you work with and they approached you. How much of the work is them approaching you versus you approaching other companies?

Jax Navarro: I would say 99.9 percent they approached me.

Pat Flynn: Wow. So if we were to distill this, why do you think they're approaching you? Because I think I do think, and you and I have talked about this, I think there are some even bigger companies that you could reach out to. And you can change those percentages a bit and even get higher jobs or higher paying jobs.

But, there's something to be said for the fact that these companies are coming to you without you even trying, why do you think they're doing that or why are they doing that?

Jax Navarro: It's cool. I mean, honestly, as a fan of what I do, you know, just scrolling Instagram and looking at my friends that do the same thing, I just love it and it's different, especially on the toy photography side, because that's an art that doesn't have a lot of awareness out there.

You know, a lot of people know about stop motion, but the photography side, there's not a lot of people that know about it. So to be able to see that for the first time is magical and you want a piece of that as a brand to market man this is this would be really cool to do a campaign with Nike like these little miniature Nikes, you know Let's make little miniature Nikes and create these really cool promotional photos with it.

So I just think It's a really fun, new art that is just so amazing and just so eye catching and magical.

Pat Flynn: There's a woman on TikTok and Instagram that I've seen, I don't know her name, but she makes these logos for different companies. And she got famous by creating like new logos for NFL teams or new logos for Patagonia. And she puts her own style into it and people loved it. So much so that she was able to get so many other companies to just reach out to her to want to create logos for them or like these temporary logos that can be on a shirt or something like that.

And I think it speaks to the power of social media. This is how people are finding your videos. You're putting your art form in a place where people not just see it, but they want to share it and they talk about it. And it's so, like you said, innovative. So you do have to bring something new to the table on social or else it's just going to be blended in.

How deep are you going into how Instagram works and the algorithm and hashtags? And like, are you getting deep with that? Are you, or are you mostly focused on the work that you're doing? And hopefully it just kind of takes off like it should.

Jax Navarro: Yeah, I don't get super deep with the algorithm because honestly, trying to figure it out is just, to me, it's like a waste of time because it's always changing.

And I figure if I can just create the best work that I can and get the reactions and the shares, and it'll just kind of do its thing, you know, it doesn't always translate to success on social media, but I always kind of look at the engagement percentage versus how many actual shares or how many actual likes.

So, you know, if, if it reaches 10,000 people, but I'm getting 20 percent engagement on that small reach, then I know I did something right. It's just the algorithm being fussy.

Pat Flynn: Yeah, and we can't always control how the algorithm works or what these platforms do, but we can control is the quality of our work, putting it out there.

And I thought you've done some really smart things with these collaborations. I know you're getting in front of a lot of people who you wouldn't have been able to get in front of because you're doing this in partnership with these other companies or other people like Kevin Garnett and he on his recent podcast.

Again, this is the basketball player. Like you worked with him on this story idea. And like, I'd love to know if you wouldn't mind sharing, I know you're going to share more about this on your own platforms, but how did this all come up? This story and this connection to Kevin Garnett. And then now it's like, for example, he just published your video on his channel and made you like a collaborator on it.

So now like you're getting these views on your video and people are through Kevin discovering you and then Shaq found it and all these other people like it's so cool how that happens. Tell me how that all kind of went down.

Jax Navarro: Yeah, it's crazy. It's it's the power of social media so I was following his podcast called KG Certified and He back in March had a story about him playing basketball with Prince And it was the most hilarious story ever that I've heard in a while in regards to just celebrity interactions with basketball.

And so, you know, I, I commented on that post and said, I need to animate the story with like fire emojis. And that comment alone started getting engagement, got some traction, got some engagement, got a bunch of likes, got a lot of comments saying, Yeah, dude, you really need to do this. And so, within the hour, they sent me a DM, and

Pat Flynn: Oh, wow.

An hour.

Jax Navarro: Yeah, they're like, Hey.

Pat Flynn: Because of a comment.

Jax Navarro: Because of a comment.

Pat Flynn: That's insane.

Jax Navarro: And they're like, hey, let us know if you do anything with this. I'm like, let's set up a meeting. And so, we got on a Zoom call, and, you know, came up with an agreement, and here we are today.

Pat Flynn: And it's just published a few days ago.

What is it at now? Like almost 4 million views and probably by the time people listen to this, which will be more toward the end of the year, who knows how much more and like, that's amazing. And so in your mind as, as the creator and the artist. What are you envisioning happening from here? Is it just like, okay, I'm one and done.

It was fun to do that thing with Kevin, and I'm gonna find somebody else? Or, like, tell me what's going through your mind.

Jax Navarro: My whole thing is to get my foot in the door into, like, the professional basketball community.

Pat Flynn: So that's your, that's like your dream, like what you want to happen.

Jax Navarro: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Pat Flynn: I can see that happening, man.

Jax Navarro: I can see it too. The ultimate dream is to actually work for the Lakers. Cause that, that is like my team. That's, I'm a diehard fan. So but any, any team at this point will do. I just, I love the culture, the game of basketball. I love the creativity in basketball. I love the fandom. So just to kind of be involved with the NBA would be amazing.

Pat Flynn: That'd be cool. If anybody out there listening knows anybody get in contact with me and or Jax we want to make it happen because dude, it's like free views. I mean, it's not free because they'd pay you, but like the virality of what you create is, is insane. These stop motion videos. If you, again, check out Plastic Action on Instagram and you'll be blown away.

How long does it take you to make one of these things? Like let's say a 30 second video, right? A 30 second. Featuring a few toys and some stop motion action and things happening. Like, tell me a little bit so we can get an understanding of like what it actually takes.

Jax Navarro: Okay, so I'll just say if I am able to produce two seconds of footage in a 10 hour day.

That's a great day.

Pat Flynn: Wait, okay, hold up. If you could produce two seconds of video in a day, that's a good day. Yes.

Jax Navarro: It's a great day.

Pat Flynn: That seems crazy.

Jax Navarro: Because if you think about each second is 24 frames and I am creating essentially an image every frame. So I'm moving it. Moving these characters, 48 images.

And you know, for, if we're doing multiple subjects, like for example, basketball, right? So there's the guy on the offense dribbling a ball. So the ball needs to be animated. The guy who's dribbling it has knees, those knees and elbows and head, every part of the body needs to be moved. Incrementally at very small increments needs to be moved every frame 48 times.

Along with the ball and then the defender as well. So yeah, and you don't always get it right the first time. So if I move something a little bit and it's off, it's like, Oh, I need to readjust it. So it's not like I'm doing it one frame. Oh, it's good. I can take a picture. No, it's really just kind of going back and forth between frames and making sure that it's smooth and flawless.

Pat Flynn: That's crazy, dude. And so for a 30 second video. You know, if it's two seconds per day, that's like two weeks of 10 hour work days straight. Plus you're set designing, you're also doing some of the music and also like the voiceovers, if there's like any announcers and stuff, like you're doing it all. What's your team like?

Jax Navarro: My team is me, myself, and I. I do it all. Actually, no, I can't say that because I do have a set designer, Tracy Aldama. At @Earthlings on Instagram, if you want to check out her work, she builds a lot of my sets, especially for the paid work, she'll design and create these sets. I also recently hired a guy who is also my stop motion mentor.

He does a lot of stunts. And so what he did for me is he provided stunt coordination. So like he coordinated a fight scene and then he recorded himself like fighting. So I can use that footage as reference. So that it can help me animate that fight scene.

Pat Flynn: That's insane. It's interesting because when you watch one of these videos, it's so smooth and it's just it's almost like these toys are moving in real life.

You don't really, it's just so flawless looking that you're just like, oh wow, this is crazy that this was put together, but you don't really understand all that goes into it, which, you know, I imagine that when you are talking to these brands and having conversations about what it takes, like, how do they take the idea of, oh, it's only a 30 second video.

And then you explain to them what actually has to happen, how long it'll take and how much it's going to cost. Like, Do you get pushback on that from some of these companies? I mean, I know Hasbro, you know, you've had a relationship with them, so they kind of know already, but maybe newer companies that you've worked with or other personalities.

Do you get a lot of like, just like I did, like surprise reactions and how do you kind of, how do you kind of work with them on that?

Jax Navarro: A lot of people don't know what it takes to create stop motion. So there is some surprise. Because I do get these requests, like, Hey, we have this really cool concept, 30 second concept that we think you would be awesome at creating it.

And it's due in two weeks. Like, there's absolutely no way I can do that.

Pat Flynn: Due in two weeks and we'll give you 2,500 bucks for it.

Jax Navarro: Right, right, right. So after having a conversation or through email, a lot of the time it's just, Kind of educating them. This is how long it actually takes. And this is, it's more like a three month process to actually create 30 seconds.

Pat Flynn: That's crazy. In that process, is there a lot of math because of the number of frames and seconds and stuff? You're like, you're doing a lot of math to, to figure it all out.

Jax Navarro: It's a good question. I'm sure there's math involved. I know, like, as I'm creating like a walk sequence, like from point A to point Z.

There's a math involved there.

Pat Flynn: Like this many steps therefore this many frames therefore this many seconds like that kind of thing.

Jax Navarro: Yeah, it's like all right. We're moving 30 inches how many increments do I need per frame to get to, those 30 inches.

Pat Flynn: So, oh wow, so then like step length and like the height of the person and It's like, okay, if, if there's seven feet in person, that would mean their stride would be this many feet, which means in this scaled down replica, it's this many.

And like, again, there's just so much probably involved with this. In fact, I know that you've inspired a lot of other people to want to learn more and get kind of a basic understanding of toy photography and stop motion. And that is another dream of yours that I know, like to eventually get to that point where you could teach some of this stuff.

Tell me a little bit more about what you hope to do there.

Jax Navarro: My purpose and my mission. is to inspire others to find whatever art that they're interested in and pursue that art. Whether it's something as a hobby that lights them up every day or something that they want to make into a career.

Pat Flynn: I love that.

Well, we can't wait to see more of you and more of your work. Jax, where should people go to see some of that and follow your stuff?

Jax Navarro: Well, you can go to my website plasticaction.com I'm, I'm very active on Instagram. So that's probably your best way to connect with me. I'm in my handle on Instagram is @PlasticAction.

I'm also on TikTok, Facebook, Twitter. What else we got? Whatever social media is out there I'm on, but Instagram is your best way to to actually connect with, with me personally.

Pat Flynn: Amazing. Jax, thank you so much for this. This has been a blessing to have you on and tell your story. I think there are a lot of talented artists in the audience who are still trying to figure it out.

So I think this gives them something to look up to and look forward to. And we look forward to seeing what else you come up with. Thanks man.

Jax Navarro: Oh man. It's been an honor. Thanks Pat. Appreciate you.

Pat Flynn: Appreciate you too.

Alright, wasn't that cool? I love Jax and what he's doing, and I have the pleasure of again, chatting with him every week or every other week, and just kind of seeing what he's up to, helping guide him toward bigger things, and bigger things are definitely coming his way, bigger connections to bigger companies, bigger personalities, and the fact that celebrities and other people follow him, there's just so much opportunity here, and all he has to do is keep playing.

I mean, it's very similar to what I've been doing in the Pokemon space. I'm playing, yeah, with things that were meant for kids, but in a way that is not just nostalgic, but for Jax it's new and it's innovative. It's storytelling with things that we're familiar with. It has the complete recipe for virality and getting the attention of big brands that have big budgets.

So congratulations, Jax. I look forward to continuing to work with you and seeing where this all takes us. At @PlasticAction, check them out on Instagram. You can see some of his top reels pinned at the top as well as on YouTube. Go find them there. Jax, this was an absolute pleasure. If you want to get these show notes and everything mentioned here in this episode, all you have to do is go to SmartPassiveIncome.com/session843, again, SmartPassiveIncome.com/session843. This was a great one to start December with and to nearly end the year with. We have another great episode next week coming up with a incredible, incredible human being, a woman who has just gone far and wide and has been an inspiration to me for a while.

And it was such an absolute pleasure to have her on the show. So make sure you subscribe so you don't miss that. And I look forward to serving you then and this Friday and more into 2025. Here we go. Let's end the year strong together. Cheers everybody.

Thank you so much for listening to the Smart Passive Income podcast at SmartPassiveIncome.com. I'm your host, Pat Flynn. Sound editing by Duncan Brown. The Smart Passive Income Podcast is a production of SPI Media and a proud member of the Entrepreneur Podcast Network. Catch you next week!

SPI 841: How to Tell Stories to Attract Your Perfect Clients with Celinne Da Costa

Celinne Da Costa: When we are walking what I like to refer to as the timeline of our highest possible soul destiny, there are forces that will come to your aid that are beyond what your rational mind can ever explain. I believe there's something out there that is benevolent, that does lead you in the direction where you're meant to be when you're connected to yourselves. When I'm on the right path, I will have a conversation with a perfect stranger, or I will see a sign, or I will ask a question and will magically get answered in a podcast I'm listening to that next day. The answers will come.

Pat Flynn: One of the most important things about your business is the story that you're telling. Not just your story and how you grew up and how you got to where you are. I think that's important. And I think in my experience, I know just exactly how important that is. You know, my layoff story and all those kinds of things that, that is important.

But the way that you shape that story and how it relates to who it is you're serving is absolutely key. We've had people like Donald Miller on the show before from building a story brand. And I don't think there's enough learning that we can have about better storytelling, which is exactly why I wanted to bring in Celinne Da Costa on today.

Celinne Da Costa is a brand identity master. She's a storytelling coach and she specifically helps people, mostly women, but I mean, her stuff is universal for how we can take our brand and actually relate to our audience. And I think that's so, so important. Even on our website, she says become the best story you've ever told.

And this is going to be especially relevant if you are a coach, if you are getting services. Or have services to share and to offer and to serve with and you know if you have any coaching programs These are going to be pretty key. So whether that is you or not, this is still going to be very very relevant So let's bring on Celinne Da Costa, this is session 841 of the SPI podcast.

This is a great conversation and you can find her at CelinneDaCosta.com. She's an absolute joy and I know you're going to enjoy this. Here she is.

Announcer: You're listening to the Smart Passive Income Podcast, a proud member of the Entrepreneur Podcast Network, a show that's all about working hard now, so you can sit back and reap the benefits later. And now your host, Pat Flynn.

Pat Flynn: Celinne, welcome to SPI. Thank you so much for coming on today.

Celinne Da Costa: I'm so excited to be here today.

Pat Flynn: It's about time. You know, we have probably been in the same room together without even knowing it. We have a lot of friends who are friends with each other and yet here we are meeting for the first time. So this is an absolute pleasure for me.

Thank you again for, for taking the time today.

Celinne Da Costa: Yeah, I'm super excited. It's been a long time coming, but it's always the right time when the time comes.

Pat Flynn: Exactly. Exactly. And speaking of the right time, I think this is a perfect time to have you come on the show because a lot of us in this, especially when the new year comes around, it's like new year, new you, you want to go bigger, you want to go bolder, but oftentimes it's a lot of the things that are happening inside of our heads, the story that we're telling ourselves that actually holds us back.

And this is what indeed you help your private clients with. You have some amazing things on your newsletter that we can already get some value from. We'll talk about that later, but I'd love to know how you got here. What is your origin story and how did you become so obsessed with helping people become the best version of themselves?

Celinne Da Costa: So my origin story starts with a story that will be very familiar to the entrepreneurs out there, which is the classic I was in a corporate job and I hated it and it sucked my soul dry and I knew that there was more. to life than what I had been presented with. So what that looks like for my individual story specifically is I immigrated to the United States when I was a child, which I know is a surprise to many because of my English accent, my American accent.

But I immigrated when I was about 10 years old. And what this did is that it gave me a very interesting perspective on the culture that is packaged and sold around, you know, let's call it the American dream. That so long as you work really, really hard and you do your best and you just go do the damn thing, then you get to climb up the corporate ladder and, you know, have your beautiful 2.5 children and life will be grand until, you know, one day and you go and you retire and you go travel.

So this granted this is very incredible marketing campaign called the American dream I totally bought into and as I was growing up in the States, I did everything that I could to become the person who could have it And so what that looked like was modifying my personality Making sure I checked off all the boxes making sure I understood what successful equaled in this context of culture and just doing it, just doing the thing all the way through.

And that's what I did. I worked my butt off. I, you know, sent myself to an Ivy league university. I graduated from there, decided to go to New York city because that's what everybody was doing. Got a corporate job as a brand strategist and one of the top agencies in the U S. And I went through the motions.

I ran on the hamster wheel. You had it. Yeah, I had it. I did the thing. And then guess what happened? How I felt didn't change. How I felt inside did not change. And I realized that if I wanted to truly change my life, I had to do something radical. And I didn't know, I was not aware at the time. I hadn't started doing my personal development work.

I wasn't aware of the science or art of change. I wasn't aware of the biology of change. I didn't know any of these things. I just intuitively knew that for me to shift, the story had to change. And that's when I decided to, I had this radical crazy idea one day of doing a social experiment in which I challenged myself to circumnavigate the globe by couch surfing using human connection.

What that means is no website, no CouchSurfing.com, never used it, never been on it. It meant literally talking to people and going through those six degrees of human connection and just friends, friends of friends, strangers I met on the road. I threw myself into this experiment and I said to myself, every day I'm going to do the three things I love the most.

I'm going to meet people, I'm going to travel, I'm going to write. And if I commit to doing what I love the most every single day, then the universe is bound to show me where I'm meant to be. I I'm bound to find my purpose. It's only a matter of time. And off I went fast forward a year later, I grew a social media following.

I started writing for Forbes, Entrepreneur. I started getting featured on big podcasts, people approaching me to share my story, telling other people's stories and entrepreneurs started to approach me, my friends, friends of friends saying, Hey, how are you growing this really engaged, large following you're not, you don't even have a, real job.

Like, how are you doing this? How are you gathering this visibility and attention and, and hype around your mission? I was like, I don't know. I'm just telling a story and long story short, they asked, Hey, can you take a look at my business? And I started to look at people's business and started to get in there to support these entrepreneurs with what is that real story that you're trying to tell through your brand, through your messaging?

Like, what is it that you really, really want to say? What matters the most to you? And, and why do you want to speak what you want to speak? And I just started going for it, and it took a life of its own, and before I knew it, I was growing a coaching business, helping leaders to tell their most authentic story with the world and to connect that to not only their sole mission, but also to their business growth, you know, because telling your story does lead to a huge catapult in income and influence and impact.

So yeah, you know, when people ask me, how did I get into this? I didn't choose it, it chose me and I decided to follow the signs.

Pat Flynn: Amazing. And we, we will be diving into storytelling a little bit and how to tell our story and how that attracts people that we want to attract. But I'm curious, you know, the dream was the American dream, but today I think a lot of people dream to do exactly what you did, which is to just get up and go and do the thing and be free, if you will, and discover or rediscover yourself.

I mean, immigrant child, I imagine, I mean, did you have parents who were like, no, like, you're crazy. Your boss must have been like, what are you doing? Tell me about the negatives that were happening around you that were trying to pull you back into this life that you thought originally that you were supposed to be a part of.

Celinne Da Costa: Yeah. When I had this idea. It felt so insane that it took me a few months to even allow myself to have this idea. I mean, it was baking for quite a while. When I started telling people about it, at first I was very quiet. I just told my like close friends. Thankfully, my close friends were very supportive.

That's why they're my close friends. But then I started to, you know, I was like, okay, well, it's time to tell my mother. It's time to tell my father. And that's when I started to get a lot of objections. When I started, you know, telling the close family friend, my mother absolutely freaked out. My dad is a huge traveler, so he was, I was a little freaked out, but he, he was like, okay, I think you can do this. He was more accepting of it. But I faced, oh my gosh, Pat, massive amounts of resistance. People told me I was crazy. People told me I was, I could get killed and worse things that I won't speak into. They told me that I was like high smoking things that like, they're just like, what are you doing?

You, you have such like, yeah, yeah, why don't you, why you don't stay. You're just gonna throw everything you've ever worked for away for this, and you're gonna be unemployed. And I, I wasn't even like, oh, I'm gonna go start my business. I have a vision for a business. I'm gonna be an entrepreneur. Like, I had no idea I would be a business owner.

It wasn't even remotely on my mind that I could have the capacity to own a business. It was so far away like dream that I didn't know I had. And so it was just massive amounts of resistance and a lot of people questioning me. And it was hard. And you know what? If it wasn't for that strong, strong feeling in my gut, which over the years I have learned to cultivate and I believe is the secret weapon to entrepreneurship, that feeling of like intuition of this is possible for me.

If it wasn't for that, I would have buckled. I don't even know how I didn't buckle, to be honest. Cause, cause that feeling was that strong, that feeling in my soul. It was a soul calling. It's the best way I can describe it. And I almost buckled so many times, but the feeling was stronger than all the noise.

Pat Flynn: I remember when I got laid off and I was presented the opportunity to become an entrepreneur. I had so much in my head telling me, well, then I'd be wasting the years I spent learning architecture. Right? I put all this time and money, my parents put time and money into schooling for me to do this thing that I'm doing, but here's this new opportunity.

How did you not weigh the sunk cost of what you had already invested in this American dream that you'd built this incredible job that you have? Was there not a thought of just like, Oh, well, I'm actually throwing that away. How did you weigh heavier the opportunity versus what you were losing?

Celinne Da Costa: What I believe in is that when we are walking what I like to refer to as the timeline of our highest possible soul destiny, there are forces that will come to your aid that are beyond what your rational mind can ever explain. And I believe that God, universe, mother nature, source, whatever it is that you believe in, it doesn't quite matter. I believe there's something out there that is benevolent, that does lead you in the direction where you're meant to be when you're connected to yourself.

And maybe that that is just your higher self in the future pulling you into the now. Who knows? But what I have witnessed in my life again and again and again ever since I decided to walk this path Is that when I'm on the right path, I will have a conversation with a perfect stranger or I will see a sign in a restaurant, or I will ask a question and will magically get answered in a podcast.

I'm listening to that next day. The answers will come. And I remember having a conversation. I was connected to a man who actually his name is Leon Lagothicez. He is the author of the Kindness Diaries, now a great friend of mine. And I got connected to him because somehow he's my friend tweeted my blog and he saw my blog and we got into a connection and a call because he had also traveled the entire world and done some crazy things in his journey.

And I remember getting on this phone with him. This was around the time that I had this idea. And I resonated with it so much. I'm like, Oh my God, this is so similar to this idea that I've had. And I asked him, like, why did you quit your job? Why did you put everything on the line to do this crazy, crazy journey?

And he was significantly older than me as well. And so he had way more years behind him. He had more to lose. And he said to me, you know, Celinne, if I could give you any advice, by the time I quit and decided to, you know, embark on my mission, I was in so much pain and I was suffering so much. It was a choiceless choice.

I had to do this or the consequences were dark. If I could advise you on anything. It's make the choice from a place of joy and from a place of I get to do this instead of waiting until the moment where there isn't a choice. And in my work, both in my personal journey as well as you know, I support so many clients who are going through enormous transitions at all different kinds of levels who have built the In like super successful business that now they feel they're a prisoner of, or they've built this like huge influence and have millions of followers, but feel like they're showing up and they're stuck to an identity that they've outgrown or, you know, they're feeling like they've created so much success in their life, but they're still feeling unfulfilled and empty inside.

I have the gift in the, like, it's such a privilege for me to be able to sit in these private rooms with so many high level leaders, because I don't just have to make my own mistakes. I can also learn from other people's mistakes. And what I realized, like, his words stayed with me because I didn't know it then.

You know, my soul was guiding me, and I was completely not, I was unconscious about what was actually going on. Which is honestly better, because if I had known, I probably would have been even more scared. You know, in this case, ignorance is bliss. But it was one of those things where I had this deep rooted feeling that if I don't make a move, I will stay exactly where I am, and my life is going to look very similar two, three, five years from now.

And I don't want that, because I know that road leads me to more misery. So I just knew that I have, I have to. It was a choiceless choice. I have to move forward to give myself the chance to change my reality, and that's exactly what happened, and it's happened again and again ever since. Whenever I'm afraid, whenever I feel tiny little niggly feeling of, mm, I'm stuck, or it's stagnant, or it's feeling like I'm comfortable where I'm at, no, it's like that really gentle fire. It's not as hot as it was back in 2016, because I've already, I've learned a lesson and I know when that little fire starts to burn, it's time to make a change.

Pat Flynn: Thank you for that background. Wow. You know, I'm hearing that having the perfect job that pays the perfect payroll or having the millions of followers, like some of your students have, or having this success and fame, more money is not the answer to fulfillment and success. Yes. What is, across your clients and yourself, what is happiness and fulfillment, really?

Celinne Da Costa: I'll give the answer from my perspective, my experience, disclaiming that, you know, I don't have the answer to it all. And I'll share what my experience has been of touching this place again and again and again. Is that the first thing that it is, is a choice. And what I mean by that, it's, when I was in college, I struggled with depression for two and a half years.

I had chronic depression. And so I, I've had this feeling when we, when we tell people, like, you just need to choose to be happy. It's not fair all the time, because sometimes someone's listening and they're like, what do you mean? I'm, I can't, like, I, I'm so unhappy or I'm so disconnected. Let's make it even easier.

Let's make it even more accessible, which is a choice of who. you're going to be every day leads to happiness and fulfillment. And what I realized is that, you know, following all these years, like over a decade of personal development and studying from these incredible masters and the absolute wisdom of what these masters have to say, it's all true about, you know, like, It's all in the now, it's all in the present, it's all about, like, who you are and being in that space of love and kindness and connection every day.

Yes, these are all true concepts, but if we want to make them more accessible, until the day that I'm forever living in unity consciousness and I'm just like 24 7 in that place of peace and bliss, until that day. There's a process, there's a journey. And what I have found with my clients, with my own personal experience, is that they kept looking to the day when dot, dot, dot, the day when they have a seven figure business, the day when they buy their dream house, the day when they are speaking on that stage that they've been dreaming of speaking on.

And what happens is that that day comes because you work for it. Cause you, you, you bust your butt. Getting there. And when that day comes, it's just like, on to the next thing. On to the next thing. Oh, okay, sure. You don't get that elative, like, oh my god, the heavens are breaking, and I, it's, I'm in absolute trance and ecstasy, like, the moment that you get on that stage.

It's just normal. It's because it's who you've become. And so what I found, the most important way to actually stay connected to that sense of happiness and fulfillment isn't in the goal, but it's rather in the daily practice. And it's something that it took me a really long time to wrap my head around because I refused to believe it at first until I had my own personal experiences of hitting the goal, hitting the goal, hitting the goal, and being like, this isn't changing how I feel inside.

And so identifying how you want to feel inside is step number one, which, you know, to me, my core, I call it with my clients, I call it like, what's the emotional cocktail that you choose to drink every day? If you could have a drink, if you could have a sip of your emotional state every day, what is yours?

For me, it's a cocktail. It's love, joy and freedom. That's the kind of cocktail I want to sip every single day when I'm living my life. If I am living in a state of love, joy, and freedom, everything I want in my life is going to work out because I'm going to feel the way that I want to feel. So no matter what happens, I'm going to get what I want because it's how I feel.

However, if I am not operating in love, joy, and freedom, my job is to get back into alignment and return to love, joy, and freedom. That's where home is. So if I'm feeling miserable and stressed and cranky, my job is to become aware of that, regulate my nervous system, come into my practice to return to love, joy, and freedom.

When I feel that way, then I make a move. Then I take action. And a lot of people, they, and even, you know, when we speak about this perpetual chasing, this perpetual hamster wheel, you're taking action from a space of being cranky, tired, miserable. And then you're surprised that you're not getting the results that you want in your business, in your life, in your love life.

It's because you're taking an action from a state that is out of alignment with the state that you wish to be in when you receive the thing that you desire. So it's nonsensical. You're taking a left when the thing you want is to the right. So your job is to stop being, going to the left, turn around, get back to the starting point, and get to the right again.

All that wrapped up. The short answer is choosing how you want to feel on a daily basis, not putting it over there in the future when you get that thing, but putting it right here today in your current state, even if the evidence hasn't presented itself yet, and then implementing a daily practice through your habits, your behavioral patterns.

and your belief systems so that you're plugging back into that frequency every day. And if you pop out, you know how to get back in. So it's very nitty gritty, small steps that are intentional, focused, and precise.

Pat Flynn: That way you are attributing your self worth and value to the actions that you take and who you are today, not whether or not, I don't know, the algorithm says that video did well, or somebody chose to hire you to go on that stage or not, or the result went this way or that way.

That doesn't matter. What matters is you did the thing that aligns with who you want to be and who you believe you are. And that was a lesson that I recently learned because I'm an Enneagram 3. So my sense of self worth often is so much tied into how other people feel about me. And, you know, there's a good side of that and there's a bad side of that.

But that's a dangerous place to be because I am fully reliant, my mood, my energy is reliant on how other people feel about me. Receive me and that's, that's like you lose a lot of control in that, in that regard, you know, luckily I've surrounded myself with a lot of people who do lift me up, who helped me be the best version of of me that I can, but I'm learning now that as long as I can just be with myself every day and do the things that I know align with who I want to be, it doesn't matter what happens.

I did the thing that I believed was correct for me. And that to me is joy and success and happiness. Now it took a lot of unraveling of a lot of, you know, my history to do that. It took a lot of psychoanalysis and going into my past to go, well, why did I default to that? How do you work with your clients or how do you imagine a person listening to this to go, well, they're already telling themselves stories about why this can't happen to them or why they don't deserve something.

It might be a money story. It might be, you know, a failed launch once in the past. How do you coach people through those past traumas to help set themselves up for success?

Celinne Da Costa: It's so dead simple, but as you know, simple does not equal easy. And sometimes things are so simple that the brain wants to make them complicated.

The simple version is like we today, like you, me, we are a product of our conditioning. And even when you think about when you look at human development from the ages of zero to seven, we haven't developed that critical thinking filter yet. We are these walking, talking, subconscious sponges. What we absorbed growing up, our parents or caretakers, the ways that they related to money, the ways they related to success, the ways they related to each other, to love, the social economic environment that we grew up in, the culture that we grew up in, all of these things are factors that have shaped us to believe because what we are, you know, who we are from a personality standpoint is how we think, how we feel, and how we act. That's what the personality is. The ego, we can call it. Our personality is a collection of how we think, how we feel, and how we act. And how we think is influenced by what belief systems we were conditioned to, to believe in such as money doesn't grow on trees or, Oh, it's, it's, you know, rich people there.

They only out to get you or every man will betray you at some point. Like whatever that story is that was passed down to you. That's, that's the, the emotional inheritance that we get from our, our parents, from our ancestry. And so we come into this world pure clean slate, and then we get all kinds of shaped by, by these external factors.

And at some point, hopefully, we wake up and realize there is more to me. There's more to me than this. And this is what we can, you know, refer to as spiritual awakening or just becoming more conscious, becoming more aware of who we are and realizing that we can no longer react as just being a byproduct of our past.

But we, as human beings, as souls, I believe, we get to that point where we're like, no, I am here to become all that I'm here to be. And that's when we start having a conversation about what is your mission? What is your why? What is your contribution to the planet? Because we are designed, the needs of the spirit are growth and contribution.

We are designed to grow and we are designed to contribute. We are not designed to navel gaze and like be just be trapped by our conditioning and our past. And so when I work with clients, you know, many people, they come to me when they're in that state of transition, they're in that state of either first wave, second wave, third wave of awakening, and they're realizing, wow, I'm meant for more.

And I know that I have more potential. There, there's a massive amount of potential that I have and I'm not living up to it and not living up to your potential is freaking painful. It is like a slow death. It is existential crisis to the max. Not knowing that you're here for more and not living up to it because you're not thinking, you're not acting, you're not feeling in accordance to that future version of you that you know in your gut that you're here to become in your lifetime.

And so there's a disconnect. This is who I want to be and this is who I am right now. How do we bridge that gap? And it's not about adding more when that disconnect is present. It's not about like, Oh Pat, you just need to get smarter or you just need to like get more skills or you just need to, to mature more.

Yes. Those things are all great. And they're part of the growth journey. But what the actual key to this process of shifting into a higher identity and evolving beyond yourself into something greater and more soul aligned is that you need to let go. You need to release, you need to free yourself of things that you used to think were the truth for you.

And you know, I'm going to tell you a secret. You know when they talk about limiting beliefs? All beliefs are limiting. All of them. Every belief you have is a limitation that you've set upon yourself. And as we grow, we create larger and larger beliefs to hold the next level of our growth. But it's a freaking ninja skill to be able to identify those beliefs and let go of them when you have grown out of them.

And so when I'm working with clients, it's really about looking at where is it that you want to go next. It's not all that you can be. It's just, let's stretch you all the way to where you can stretch to understand what is that next evolution of you look like. That version of you, that personality, How does he, she think?

How do they feel? How do they act? Who are they? Let's anchor your future self in so we know where we're going. And then we look at the gap of where you are now and where that future self is. And that's where the inner work, I have a process called the rewrite your life method that I take my clients through, which is, let's look at what are the belief systems, habit patterns, and stories that you're telling yourself, they're keeping you anchored into your current identity. And this is a deeper process that, you know, involves neurolinguistic programming and hypnotherapy and energy work and just really, you know, neuroscience, like really getting into their brain and understanding like what is keeping them back.

But the short version is we identify what are the limiting belief systems that you're engaging in, that are keeping you locked into the current identity. Because if you believe that the more money you make, the more people will take advantage of you, then forget about that, I want to hit seven figures this year goal.

Because it's not safe. You're subconscious. is not registering your goal as safe and therefore you won't get there because you will continue to self sabotage yourself and you will continue to find problems people and situations that where you'll either lose money or you'll mess up the launch whatever that reality that will replay itself so that you can stay at the current level because it's not safe for you to grow.

If there is a habit pattern that you're engaging in, that's anchored into that belief, so you have the belief, then you have the habit pattern. So you believe that, you know, if you make more money, people will take advantage of you. So the pattern is that you will make a lot of money. And then you'll find the next contractor that promises you the world and you'll mess all this money in them without asking the right questions, without actually, like, properly interviewing them.

And then all of a sudden, you're out of a bunch of money and the contractor didn't deliver what they said. And you're like, Oh, you see, they're always out to get me. Like, I will never be enough.

Pat Flynn: Now it's confirmation bias comes in.

Celinne Da Costa: Exactly. And then the next thing you'll do is you'll make meaning out of your pattern, which is you'll tell yourself a story.

And that story will look like, you know, every time that I always go for it, go for my goals, people always come and then take advantage of me. And it's because, you know, when I was young, my father, he would do this to me. And, and, and my mother used to talk down to me and it comes from my child and they'll, they'll create a story to assign meaning to the behavioral pattern that's anchored into a belief system that most times they picked up unconsciously.

Sometimes not even through trauma. Sometimes it was just a kid pushed you in the playground after you gave him your lunch. Like it can be something really innocent. So the process of unwinding that in those layers, the layers, the way I teach it is beliefs, patterns, stories is we identify the story, the meaning that you're giving to it.

We find the pattern, which is. It's rooted in your daily actions, so you have to change your daily practice as well. There's steps you gotta take every single day to change how you're acting and behaving. And then we trace it back into the belief system and we, we release the belief system which is anchored into an unprocessed emotion.

So that's, that's the road map to releasing trauma in a very short version.

Pat Flynn: Can you tell me a story about a client, you don't have to say a name, but somebody who had a lock, you helped them through this, they finally were able to let go. And then where are they now?

Celinne Da Costa: So I'll share a story of one of my dear clients.

She hired me originally. Actually, funny enough, she found me because I had worked with Amy Porterfield and then she did a testimonial, and then this client found me and she was like, oh, cool. You know, I am a she's, she was in process of writing a book, which is her life's work that she was consolidating into a book.

She was 80% done with this book, and she had huge visions. She's like, I wanna turn this into a business, and it's gonna be my keynote. And she was absolutely stuck what she thought was writer's block on one of the beginning chapters of the book which basically tied the whole book together. So she hired me saying, Hey, I need help telling this story.

I'm trying to finish this book. I'm not able to finish it. I don't know why, but I've been stuck on it for months. So we go deeper into it and turns out the chapter she's stuck on is a chapter around self acceptance. Where she talks about the importance of accepting yourself in order to, to be able to, to unlock your voice and find your courage and, and put yourself out there in the world.

Because her book was all around how to help people heal in the workplace. And the importance of accepting yourself in order to really make the most out of this process. And when we dug deeper in and understood what's happening? Why is it that you're stuck? Turns out that this is, you know, again, it's such a spoiler alert that isn't.

Turns out the reason why she couldn't write this book is because she had a huge block within herself because she was not accepting herself. Her father had recently passed away and he was very abusive and it had left all of this pent up resentment, anger, grief that she hadn't fully processed in her system.

And so she was in this place of like harboring all of these very dense, painful emotions in her body and she was not looking at them. She wasn't addressing them. Instead, she was like, Oh, that's just going to put that in the corner. I'm just going to plow ahead with life, which is what so many people do, especially when they haven't learned the importance of emotional regulation and emotional processing, not just for your wellbeing, Pat, but also for high performance, since we're talking about entrepreneurship here, if you don't care about your wellbeing, which hopefully is not people in this podcast, but at least, you know, if you care about high performance, know that healing is on the path to high performance. And so she had all this pent up energy and it was literally blocking her creativity because creativity is, is inspiration. Inspiration is, the word says it, inspiration in spirit. It's spirit coming through you. It's you being able to actually channel something that's beyond your little personality self.

It's about getting connected to something bigger than you. That's where all creativity comes from. She couldn't do that because she was too busy. Her body was too busy processing all this pent up dense emotion. So what we needed to do was, first thing first, is recognize, acknowledge, hey, you're not writing because this thing is about self acceptance, and one of your values is integrity. If you, one of your core values as a human being, because one of the things I do with my clients is value work to help them really understand what their values are, because that's the blueprint for any successful, fulfilling, sustainable business, is knowing what your values are.

One of her values was integrity. Of course she's not writing this thing. She's out of integrity with herself. So she can't write it. Her soul won't let her. It's like, nope, you shall not pass until you figure out how to iron this out. That was the first piece. Then the second step is, let's go in. Let's go into the basement and see what's going on here.

So I walked her through this process where we went into her subconscious. And again, I work with hypnotherapy and just going into that past timeline. And finding that little girl who was so freaking terrified and so scared to express herself through this book, because if she did, she would get hurt. So there was a very real wounded child inside of her that believed, It's not safe for me to publish this book.

It's not safe for me to talk about this. Because if I do, I will be beat. I will be hurt. Bad things will happen to me. Which she was, in the present day, projecting as, people will judge me. People will, you know, it's going to be a witch hunt. And she was projecting that, that deep rooted fear into what she thought would happen if she published this book.

So we had to go back in there and give her the tools to really reparent herself in that way and to feel from a very fundamental nervous system level that it's okay, this is in the past, this is not the present. Processing those emotions, so there's a process I take my clients through to just safely go into that original grief and that pain and move it through their nervous system.

It takes about, I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but when we are not in the mind, it actually takes the body maximum about three minutes to process an emotion. The longest emotion that it takes for a nervous system to process is grief. It takes around three minutes to process it through the body.

Everything else is a story that we give it. It's a meaning, which can go on for decades. And so once she processed that, we brought her back into the present timeline, and we got her connected to the bigger why she's doing this. Who is this going to impact? Why is she even bother writing this book? So this is deeper like sole purpose work and getting her really clear and connected to the bigger picture of what she's doing.

Once she understood why she was doing what she was doing, then we did the story work, which is what's the story that you want to tell around what it means to accept yourself. And how do you do that? By being authentic to where you are now, instead of what she was trying to do, which has been a story that she was far away ahead than where she actually was.

But the most potent truth was actually her saying, I'm still in the process of doing this for myself, and here's where I'm at, and here's what I've learned, and here's what I want to share with you in this book. Once we unblocked that, her chapter came out in just like a week or so. It just flowed out of her.

She finished the book, she published it, it became a bestseller, and fast forward to two years from that, it is now an online course business. And she is now getting paid multiple thigh figures to be a keynote speaker at really like top companies around the world. And she is now running workshops and doing keynote speaking on that book and that book started all of it.

And so now she's able to freely express herself, build a business that is founded in her sole mission and have a book that is changing the life of thousands of people, not to mention the keynote and the corporate workshops that she's running. And it's all now centered around something that she is fully embodied and she feels fully confident in.

Pat Flynn: That's amazing, Celinne. Just congratulations to her and to you and your clients and what they are working through. I mean, this is deep stuff. This isn't like an episode you can go, okay, like, here's the next tactic. It's, it's a lot of inner work that needs to happen. I think this is something I've learned over time is it's a lot of mental health that's required to be able to be the best version of myself and you know, a lot of times you need some outside help to be able to discover or see these things. This is why I love the mastermind groups I'm in. These are people who are very honest with me and they see things that I don't because I'm in the middle of it and it's just a nice way to get reconfirmed that yes, this is so important.

I know that you work with a lot of people. You also mentioned that I believe you have a lead magnet or something that you can offer people here. That's maybe a little bit more tactical, but related to storytelling. Can you tell us a little bit about that and what that might offer?

Celinne Da Costa: Yeah, definitely more tactical. I so recognize as we're speaking into this, that this is really deep. And one of the things I also want to share is that for a lot of people, the inner work can feel really cumbersome and really scary and really overwhelming. But what I want to share is that one of my goals, one of my missions during my time is to demystify it and to make it really simple.

This lead magnet will start to do that. But also when people go on my website there's a lot of products that I have that is all designed on how can we make this simple, obtainable, and fun. And so the lead magnet that I have is all around how to share your irresistible story so that you can attract more of your soulmate clients.

And what I love about this lead magnet is I take you behind the scenes of what it is that I do with my private clients, what this masterclass does. It's, it's a video masterclass, it's less than an hour, and it's going to teach you the key principles of what it is that you need to know in order to tell a really magnetic story.

As a brand that will attract the right people to you. It's very practical. It's very tactical and it will show you also what are the biggest mistakes that entrepreneurs are making that are actually keeping them inauthentically expressing on the internet. And what are the reasons why you might not be connecting with the right audience where you might not be having people knocking on your doors asking to buy from you. So what it does instead is it shows you my four step framework of how it is that you can craft a story every single day in your content to really put yourself out there and to do so in a way that's authentic and is connected to you. And it's very simple. I promise you it's less than an hour of your time.

And if you go through the steps that I share there, you're going to get a really clear picture of what it's like to tell your story. I recently had a client before she hired me, she went through this masterclass and she said she took the principles that she learned from the masterclass and use them on her social media literally the next day and she started to get clients. So it's something that's going to support you right away. I'm very confident of that.

Pat Flynn: Thank you. So where can people go to check that out?

Celinne Da Costa: So they can go to CelinneDaCosta.com/freemasterclass. My name is Celinne, so it's one L and two N's. I know that's a common mistake.

So I always flag it for people who want to explore my other offerings. I have some courses as well as my one on one coaching. You can go on CelinneDaCosta.com and all the information is laid out there.

Pat Flynn: Beautiful. Thank you. We'll have all the links on the show notes page. Celinne, thank you for your time today and for getting deep with us.

This is something we don't often talk about because we get pretty tactical here in the show, but every once in a while, it's such a refreshing and also needed thing to hear. So thank you for that. And wish you all the best. Looking forward to when we cross paths again to actually seeing you in person and shaking your hand and saying hello.

Celinne Da Costa: Hugs.

Pat Flynn: Yes.

Celinne Da Costa: Shaking my hand. I'm a hugger, but you know. I'll respect your boundaries.

Pat Flynn: But I don't want to assume, you know, you never know.

Celinne Da Costa: Okay, well, we're in now. We know.

Pat Flynn: We're hugging for sure.

Celinne Da Costa: For sure.

Pat Flynn: Thanks, Celinne. Appreciate you.

Celinne Da Costa: Thank you.

Pat Flynn: All right, I hope you enjoyed that conversation. I really love just the idea of a soulmate client.

I just love that, right? That's like a perfect client. And I love how she framed that again. It's just her expertise and learning how to tell the story and connect that soulmate client, especially if you are a coach or you offer any services or consultations. This is going to be especially helpful for you, and I definitely recommend checking out that free masterclass.

If you go to CelinneDaCosta.com/freemasterclass, you'll see that less than an hour to take, and she has a lot of other things and just great stories to share. And she's such a wonderful person. Highly recommend to check her out again. Thank you so much for listening in.

This is session 841. If you want the show notes and things and resources that were recommended here, you Just go to the show notes page, SmartPassiveIncome.com/session841. You'll get all the links and everything that was shared again. Thank you, Celinne. I appreciate you again. I cannot stress enough how important the storytelling is.

And it's not just the pictures that you paint and the movie that you're kind of taking your audience through, but it's the words you use and how that relates and how that then goes into and naturally gets into an offer of some sort. That's how you do this the right way. So it doesn't even have to ever feel like selling.

It's not aggressive. You're not even asking. You're sharing a story and a person wants to come with you on that story that you were sharing. So anyway, thank you so much. SmartPassiveIncome.com/session841. Thank you again, Celinne. I appreciate you.

Cheers, everybody. Take care.

Thank you so much for listening to the Smart Passive Income podcast at SmartPassiveIncome.com. I'm your host, Pat Flynn. Sound editing by Duncan Brown. The Smart Passive Income Podcast is a production of SPI Media and a proud member of the Entrepreneur Podcast Network. Catch you next week!